[shoober420]

I never said you had bad apps or adware i was talking about some of the Posts i read on the net... i totally understand that you love and want to use the classic style but i still don't get why you're still refusing to make the test yourself.

I basically already did the test, I used Aero like years ago when I first installed Windows 7. I didn't experience any problems with it, I just read numerous threads and articles on how it can effect your gaming performance. So, I tested it for myself, I disabled it and used my computer since then. It runs faster and more responsive with it off. That was my test.

 

[Squall-Leonh@rt]

I can't find anything supporting this statement. All I can find about the reason behind tearing is there is no sync with the refresh rate (meaning the fps is not in sync with the refresh rate). I don't believe there is a such thing as a "incomplete frame". All frames being rendered by the video card are complete, its just when these complete frames exceed the monitors refresh rate, tearing occurs because the monitor can draw more frames then what its refresh rate is.

For example, I play CS1.6 at 640x480 resolution with 100fps at 160Hz refresh rate on my CRT monitor. Now, with your theory, I would experience tearing during game play. But, since my refresh rate is higher then my fps limit, I get no tearing, no matter what happends. Now, when I play at 60Hz and 100fps, I get tearing, simply because my fps is exceeding the refresh rate. I have tested this numerous times with many games, and I only get tearing when my fps exceeds the refresh rate. You cannot convince me, especially coming from the guy who says Aero increases laptop battery life ROFL.

As much as i hate using wikipedia as a source...

Screen tearing is a visual artifact in video display where a display device shows information from two or more frames in a single screen draw.[1]
The artifact occurs when the video feed to the device isn't in sync with the display's refresh. This can be due to non-matching refresh rates—in which case the tear line moves as the phase difference changes (with speed proportional to difference of frame rates). It can also occur simply from lack of sync between two equal frame rates, in which case the tear line is at a fixed location that corresponds to the phase difference. During video motion, screen tearing creates a torn look as edges of objects (such as a wall or a tree) fail to line up.

When running vsynced, the frame is given 16.7ms to be completed before being swapped to the front buffer on a 60hz display.
when running without vsync, a new frame is swapped in at the beginning of every resweep of the scanbeam, which for compatibility sake is simulated on LCD. (less than 0.8ms)

Anand

In this form of double buffering, a swap can happen anytime. That means that while the computer is sending data to the monitor, the swap can occur. When this happens, the rest of the screen is drawn according to what the new front buffer contains. If the new front buffer is different enough from the old front buffer, a visual artifact known as "tearing" can be seen. This type of problem can be seen often in high action FPS games when whipping around a corner as fast as possible. Because of the quick motion, every frame is very different, when a swap happens during drawing the discrepancy is large and can be distracting.

 

[Squall-Leonh@rt]

Not by my standards. I still feel that laggy mouse movement. I've tested this in numerous games. It reduces it alot but its definitely still there.

maybe you shouldn't use crappy FAKE 120hz displays.

I can't find anything about people saying triple buffering helps the lag. I already said earlier that it probably makes it worse, but it certainly wouldn't fix the lag.

You aren't trying hard enough.
Guru3D
Rage3D
Semiaccurate

all of them have rediculously ignorant threads about how Triplebuffering prevents input lag, and then telling people to use D3DOverride to enable it on Dx titles.

Trouble is, the D3D form forced by this app forces ALL FRAMES in the swap chain to be displayed without any invalidation for when the scene has suddenly changed.

Doom 3 uses this form of triplebuffering as well natively, hence the need to cap the framerate to 58 in fps limiter or nv inspector or dxtory.
Another example of opengl input lag when a high framerate game is vsynced, would be homeworld 1 and 2, hard to stand playing either with vsync, but in the case of the sequel, you can't play it without it.

 

[PsyMan]

This is what happends, when your GPU is throwing more fps then the monitor refresh rate, the frames are coming so fast that they display only half of the frame because the next frame is coming in to fast. It essentially overlaps half of the current frame already drawn. They are still complete frames, its just the frames are being sent to fast that the next on coming frame draws half way over the current frame.

If what you were saying was true, then I would experience tearing even when my fps was lower then my refresh rate. But, as long as your fps is lower then your refresh rate, you will be fine. I did a very thorough test on this because I can't stand tearing either when I'm playing certain games. As long as your refresh rate is 5Hz higher then the fps limit (100fps and 105Hz), you won't get any tearing.

Lemme make a bad drawing to have you understand what i mean.

Suppose that the first line shows frames sent by the video adapter and the second one shows frames displayed by the monitor, assuming that both show the same frames per second (which usually doesn't happen btw )

"-" stands for no frame while "|" is for frame:



|---|---|---|---|--|---|---|---|---|----|---|---|---|--|---|

|---|---|--|---|---|---|---|---|----|---|---|--|---|---|---|


Can you see the issue here? The specs of a monitor might be saying "60hz" but this is not really specific. The time between each frame is not stable, it varies. Synchronization is lost every once in a while and must be found again. This is a design issue with traditional Vsync as a workaround.

Now if the monitor refresh rate is higher (way higher in the example):


|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||



Problem solved!

 

[shoober420]

Screen tearing is a visual artifact in video display where a display device shows information from two or more frames in a single screen draw.

This is what I've been trying to say this whole time. The GPU is rendering more frames then the monitor can display, so they start to overlap eachother. They are complete frames, but they are being sent so fast that the next frame draws over the current frame being displayed, resulting in the tear. It overlaps half of the already displayed frame.

 

[shoober420]

maybe you shouldn't use crappy FAKE 120hz displays.

Bro, I already stated that I use a CRT. The only displays that will fake 120Hz are LCD's. LCD's will draw the frame 3 extra times to fake smoothness and 120Hz. My display is awesome. Its a IBM P275, one of the few CRT's with a DVI input. Its a top of the line CRT.

You aren't trying hard enough.
Guru3D
Rage3D
Semiaccurate

all of them have rediculously ignorant threads about how Triplebuffering prevents input lag, and then telling people to use D3DOverride to enable it on Dx titles.

I googled triple buffering and lag, and only came up with threads of people saying that triple buffering causes MORE LAG.

 

[shoober420]

Lemme make a bad drawing to have you understand what i mean.

Suppose that the first line shows frames sent by the video adapter and the second one shows frames displayed by the monitor, assuming that both show the same frames per second (which usually doesn't happen btw )

"-" stands for no frame while "|" is for frame:



|---|---|---|---|--|---|---|---|---|----|---|---|---|--|---|

|---|---|--|---|---|---|---|---|----|---|---|--|---|---|---|


Can you see the issue here? The specs of a monitor might be saying "60hz" but this is not really specific. The time between each frame is not stable, it varies. Synchronization is lost every once in a while and must be found again. This is a design issue with traditional Vsync as a workaround.

Now if the monitor refresh rate is higher (way higher in the example):


|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||



Problem solved!

Screen tearing occurs when a frame is drawn to fast and it overlaps the current frame being displayed. I don't know any better way of explaining it. Its not that the frames are out of sync, they are just being thrown at the monitor to fast for it to be displayed correctly. VSync just syncs the refresh rate and fps together. If your graph was correct, I would still get tearing in games I don't use VSync in, but I don't experience any tearing as long as my refresh rate is 5Hz higher then the fps amount.

 

[Lasnap]

You have doubled and even tripled posted several times now and that is against the rules.

 

[PsyMan]

If your graph was correct, I would still get tearing in games I don't use VSync in, but I don't experience any tearing as long as my refresh rate is 5Hz higher then the fps amount.

Not necessarily. There are ways to predict when the next update is going to happen (beam tracing etc.). If the monitor has spare frames this becomes easier.

 

[shoober420]

You have doubled and even tripled posted several times now and that is against the rules.

No I haven't. All my posts have been different. They may have been stating the same things, but they are directed towards the different people I was talking to.

Not necessarily. There are ways to predict when the next update is going to happen (beam tracing etc.). If the monitor has spare frames this becomes easier.

Beam tracing has nothing to do with VSync or the way the GPU draws fps to the monitor. It is an algorithm used in 3D rendering. Even so, if this beam tracing or any other method helped over come screen tearing, then I would still have substantially less tearing when using 60Hz and 100fps. But its still there, until I set my refresh rate at least 5Hz higher then the fps limit. Then it magically disappears. Its all about that refresh rate. As long as your refresh rate is higher then your fps, you can say goodbye to screen tearing.

I decided to make a graph using your idea.

The top line is the fps, and the bottom line is refresh rate.

|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| (fps)
|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--| (low refresh rate)

When the vertical line of the fps is under the horizontal line of the refresh rate, there will be a tear. This happens because there isn't enough refresh rate updates to keep up with the fps. So when the vertical fps line is in between the horizontal refresh rate lines, the new frame cuts into the current frame being displayed and cuts it in half, hence the tear.

Now here's the graph with high refresh rate.

|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| (fps)
||||||||||||||||||||||| (very high refresh rate)

Now, since there are enough refresh rate updates to draw all the fps to the monitor (and more), there will be no tearing. The refresh rate is high enough to keep up with all the fps being drawn. As long as your refresh rate is higher (at least by 5Hz) then your fps, then you shouldn't experience any tearing and VSync would be unnecessary.

 

[runawayprisoner]

I'd suggest to stop feeding it...

but you can do as you please, it's still funny.

I realized this after one comment.

I think Phil had a signature about this same situation at some point. Can't really overstate how important it is.

Anyway...

 

[shoober420]

I realized this after one comment.

I think Phil had a signature about this same situation at some point. Can't really overstate how important it is.

Anyway...

I'm not trolling. I feel that I'm being trolled here. People telling me "VSync doesn't lag your games" and "Aero uses less resources then the classic GUI and keeps your laptop battery alive longer". Like come on guys, I was for real thinking you were all trolling me. I thought that VSync lagging your games and Aero using more resources then the classic GUI was common knowledge. I guess not.

But back onto the subject of Windows 8, does anyone know if you can customize the buttons on the top right of windows (the minimize and close buttons) to look like how they do in the classic grey GUI?

 

[runawayprisoner]

I thought that VSync lagging your games and Aero using more resources then the classic GUI was common knowledge. I guess not.

It's common knowledge. Some of us just don't really "see" it because we have computers that run way past the point where having vsync on or not does not matter anymore.

Same for Aero.

Seriously, if you have a computer that's affected by vsync and Aero, I'd even suggest that you go back to using Windows XP.

But like I mentioned a while ago, there's a fine difference between fps and animation updates per second. And yeah, you were right in that it's game-dependent, but that's exactly why having high fps in one game and low fps in another may not matter. Any extra lag introduced is more of a result of your monitor/graphic card/processor combo than as a result of having low fps or vsync enabled. Ultimately, if your computer can't handle something, then... it can't handle it. Simple as that.

 

[Squall-Leonh@rt]

It's common knowledge.

its not

Some of us just don't really "see" it because we have computers that run way past the point where having vsync on or not does not matter anymore.

way off base.

 

[DinJerr]

Hey, my consumer preview of Win8 isn't expiring yet, and it still doesn't give a rat's tail about whether Vsync is on or not. What should I do???

Also: I am OSX user and have never seen whether or not Vsync is on or not, because on Macs it just doesn't sucking matter, everything is snappy even with all them fancy effects on.

 

[shoober420]

It's common knowledge. Some of us just don't really "see" it because we have computers that run way past the point where having vsync on or not does not matter anymore.

Same for Aero.

Seriously, if you have a computer that's affected by vsync and Aero, I'd even suggest that you go back to using Windows XP.

Bro, even if you had the best computer in the world, VSync would lag your game. You don't understand how VSync works. Even if you had some government super computer, and you turned VSync on, it would still lag your games and make your mouse have sluggish movement. Look at my specs, my machine is more then capable of handling VSync. That is ignorant to assume I have a slow machine, especially when my specs are right in my sig. Like you can't miss them. No wonder you can't notice the lag VSync does to your mouse movement. You can't even notice my specs in my sig.

But like I mentioned a while ago, there's a fine difference between fps and animation updates per second. And yeah, you were right in that it's game-dependent, but that's exactly why having high fps in one game and low fps in another may not matter. Any extra lag introduced is more of a result of your monitor/graphic card/processor combo than as a result of having low fps or vsync enabled. Ultimately, if your computer can't handle something, then... it can't handle it. Simple as that.

Having low fps in ANY game is a bad thing. No matter the game, low fps is not tolerable. Extra lag can be introduced by VSync and low fps. That is such a ignorant statement. My computer can handle VSync, its just why would I want to lag my mouse movement? VSync will lag your mouse movement regardless of how good your computer is. Look at my specs bro, I can for sure use VSync. A dinky Pentium 3 with a Geforce 2 and 256MB of ram can handle VSync efficiently, its just IT WILL LAG YOUR MOUSE RESPONSIVENESS. If you can't notice it, I feel terribly bad for you.

My machine can use Aero with no problem, its just I don't want my GPU being used up to render a fruity GUI, even if its only 5% of my GPU's resources. I would rather have that 5% used for games instead of a gay GUI, just like any serious gamer would decide to do. Its all about maximum performance, not flashy windows and pretty colors.

Gaze at my desktop in amazement. This is what a real mans desktop looks like. IT Professional desktop right here.

Notice the awesome Windows 95/98 icons on my desktop. I hope this sparks some nostalgia in some people.

No its not.

To PC gamers knowledge, I sure thought it was.

 

[shoober420]

Hey, my consumer preview of Win8 isn't expiring yet, and it still doesn't give a rat's tail about whether Vsync is on or not. What should I do???

I'm sure you're completely joking, but you can't turn VSync on and off via Windows settings, you have to go to your video card driver settings page.

Also: I am OSX user and have never seen whether or not Vsync is on or not, because on Macs it just doesn't sucking matter, everything is snappy even with all them fancy effects on.

To any serious PC gamer, VSync does matter. Mac gamers aren't serious, or they would of bought a PC instead of a macbook. Gaming on a laptop ROFL. I've never used a mac with a Geforce or Radeon card in it, so I couldn't tell you how to navigate to the Nvidia control panel or Catalyst control panel. Then again, you probably don't even have a dedicated video card to begin with ROFL. You're probably using that poopy on-board video.

Aero worked just fine for me on Windows. Its just I noticed that my computer was a bit snappier and responsive when I turned off Aero. Not like it made a HUGE difference. My computer is more then capable of handling Aero, I'm just a serious gamer and don't want my GPU being used for a fruity looking GUI and want my GPU dedicated to my games.

 

[runawayprisoner]

its not

Yes, it is.

way off base.

Try vsync on an Intel Atom computer and have fun.

But try the same thing on an Ivy 3770K and...

Also: I am OSX user and have never seen whether or not Vsync is on or not, because on Macs it just doesn't sucking matter, everything is snappy even with all them fancy effects on.

Nope. Quite the opposite. OSX has always had vsync on... since like... 10 years ago. The reason you don't notice it is because the interface is now "coded entirely around vsync" (if that makes sense) to minimize any lag. As a result, you don't actually "see" it. You can still disable sync via code or by disabling certain features, but that will actually make the interface lag because then it'll draw faster than the display can refresh (most Mac displays are locked to 60Hz).

Bro, even if you had the best computer in the world, VSync would lag your game. You don't understand how VSync works. Even if you had some government super computer, and you turned VSync on, it would still lag your games and make your mouse have sluggish movement. Look at my specs, my machine is more then capable of handling VSync. That is ignorant to assume I have a slow machine, especially when my specs are right in my sig. Like you can't miss them. No wonder you can't notice the lag VSync does to your mouse movement. You can't even notice my specs in my sig.

Sorry to say this, but your specs are still weak. Try something like StarCraft 2 or Supreme Commander and it'll lag to oblivion even with vsync off.

I know because I owned the same computer 3 years ago. Heck, I overclocked the living hell out of it and it was still weak.

Try updating your RAM, for instance.

Having low fps in ANY game is a bad thing. No matter the game, low fps is not tolerable. Extra lag can be introduced by VSync and low fps. That is such a ignorant statement. My computer can handle VSync, its just why would I want to lag my mouse movement? VSync will lag your mouse movement regardless of how good your computer is. Look at my specs bro, I can for sure use VSync. A dinky Pentium 3 with a Geforce 2 and 256MB of ram can handle VSync efficiently, its just IT WILL LAG YOUR MOUSE RESPONSIVENESS. If you can't notice it, I feel terribly bad for you.

I can't notice it because my games run at 120fps... with vsync on. Before you ask: 120Hz monitors are dirt cheap these days.

My machine can use Aero with no problem, its just I don't want my GPU being used up to render a fruity GUI, even if its only 5% of my GPU's resources. I would rather have that 5% used for games instead of a gay GUI, just like any serious gamer would decide to do. Its all about maximum performance, not flashy windows and pretty colors.

Gaze at my desktop in amazement. This is what a real mans desktop looks like. IT Professional desktop right here.

Nope. IT professional desktops don't look anywhere like that. IT pros run Linux. Only kids play games and brag about their desktops these day, dude.

And also sorry to say, but your machine can't handle Aero if you mention it lagging up your games. "Can handle" means you gotta be able to do it without any penalty. If there is any performance penalty from enabling it, then your computer is just weak.

 

[shoober420]

Nope. Quite the opposite. OSX has always had vsync on... since like... 10 years ago. The reason you don't notice it is because the interface is now "coded entirely around vsync" (if that makes sense) to minimize any lag. As a result, you don't actually "see" it. You can still disable sync via code or by disabling certain features, but that will actually make the interface lag because then it'll draw faster than the display can refresh (most Mac displays are locked to 60Hz).

VSync doesn't minimize lag AT ALL. You don't know how VSync works. Drawing the interface faster then the display can refresh doesn't make it lag, it just MIGHT create a tear in the screen. There will be no lag whatsoever.

Sorry to say this, but your specs are still weak. Try something like StarCraft 2 or Supreme Commander and it'll lag to oblivion even with vsync off.

I know because I owned the same computer 3 years ago. Heck, I overclocked the living hell out of it and it was still weak.

Try updating your RAM, for instance.

ROFL you got to be trolling. Lets look at Starcraft 2's Minimum and Recommended Requirements shall we?

Minimum System Requirements:
CPU: 2.6 GHz Pentium® IV or equivalent AMD Athlon
GPU: 128 MB PCIe NVIDIA® GeForce® 6600 GT or ATI Radeon® 9800 PRO
RAM: 1.5 GB

Before I even post the Recommend Requiements, I completely stomp the Minimum. Like bro, if you were lagging with my machine on Starcraft 2, you must have done something horribly wrong to your machine. Maybe it was overheating or something.

Recommended Specifications:
CPU: Dual Core 2.4Ghz Processor
GPU: 512 MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8800 GTX or ATI Radeon® HD 3870
RAM: 2 GB RAM

I am still well the recommended specifications. I could for sure play this game. I can't possibly imagine what you did wrong to beable to not play Starcraft 2 on this machine, I don't even want to know. And judging by your overall knowledge, you could have done numerous things wrong. God only knows.

Here's a video of a guy playing with an E8400 @4GHz and a Radeon 5750.

His fps is perfectly fine WHILE RECORDING, and we all know it takes alot of power to record and play. So my machine can FOR SURE play Starcraft 2. A Radeon 4890 is FASTER then a 5750, even when its overclocked only 20MHz, and let me tell you, a E8400 @3.85GHz and 4GHz will not make Starcraft 2 unplayable.

I can't notice it because my games run at 120fps... with vsync on. Before you ask: 120Hz monitors are dirt cheap these days.

Dude, I got a CRT that can do 160Hz. Even when I load up CS1.6, Quake, or Unreal, with VSync on and 160Hz playing at 640x480 resolution, with the fps limit set to 160fps, THERE IS STILL LAG. VSync lags your mouse movement. I can't believe you can't notice it. What a shame.

Nope. IT professional desktops don't look anywhere like that. IT pros run Linux. Only kids play games and brag about their desktops these day, dude.

And also sorry to say, but your machine can't handle Aero if you mention it lagging up your games. "Can handle" means you gotta be able to do it without any penalty. If there is any performance penalty from enabling it, then your computer is just weak.

IT's mostly use Linux? ARE YOU SERIOUS? That is a flat out lie. Linux barely has any market share and is Windows dominated. Most company's do NOT use Linux. How do I know? My dad is an IT. Linux is rarely used in a business envirement. It is Windows dominated. You are filled with such ignorance it is hilarious.

Windows dominates the market share still to this day. IT's are forced to use Windows because that's what most corporations use.

My machine can handle Aero, my games played fine with it enabled. Its just my overall desktop experience was a bit snappier with it disabled. Not a huge difference in anyway, but the classic GUI is for sure faster then the bloaty and fruity Aero GUI. I'm only bragging about my desktop because of the way the Windows 8 GUI looks. It looks nothing like Windows. If it ain't gray, its gay.

 

[the_randomizer]

Wow, shoober420 sure likes to be contentious with everyone on the forum it seems.