Kreed's 2xSai

takwu · Dec 8, 2002

Originally posted by Zerthr
so.. how bout that polygon texture and 2xSai algorithm, where can i find the light?

I think the first step would be computer graphics courses in college, isn't it?
If you've already taken that step (and suceeded), it should be fairly straight forward to research on the internet about the 2xSai algorithm.

Zerthr · Dec 8, 2002

Originally posted by Kane
I think someone just wants everything. Well OK, you program an emu that plays Xenogears in HLE and has no glitches ;

hey! it's not like I don't want to.. I just don't know how...

but seriously... I know it's hard to do and maybe this has been discussed excessively... I should not be asking for more, but again... without disatisfaction then there are no room for improvements right?

obviously a kid like me that's straight dumb acid can't pull out any stud HLE emulator... that's why I'm asking...

this is a half punk, half asking questions session... some of my questions aren't even answered... I just want to know (with a innocent face :emb: )

Kane · Dec 8, 2002

It's not possible to improve it IIRC.
AFAIK, the characters in Xenogears are made up of multiple tiled texures. The 2xSai algorithm doesn't know about the texture next to it. It won't either.

Zerthr · Dec 9, 2002

Originally posted by Kane
It's not possible to improve it IIRC.
AFAIK, the characters in Xenogears are made up of multiple tiled texures. The 2xSai algorithm doesn't know about the texture next to it. It won't either.

IAGTEAC
sorry i don't know won't IIRC or AFAIK is... but.. I'm sure there's a way to improve and that's my point... we won't really "need" to reach that point but knowing that it is possible (somewhat) is better than giving up..

my point is also that yes.. there's some flaws... and I don't see why others don't see it except for me... darn those picky eyes.

When people say they can run this specific game flawlessly... I question those comments...

Phoenix Flame · Dec 9, 2002

IIRC = If I recall correctly
AFAIK = as far as I know

Try playing at 320x240, the PSX's original resolution and you may see the light. Also bear in mind that the PSX has no Z-buffer, it has no conception of depth.

takwu · Dec 9, 2002

Originally posted by Zerthr
and I don't see why others don't see it except for me...

Maybe others see it, just that they don't call it a flaw.

"It's not a bug; it's a feature."

Pete Bernert · Dec 9, 2002

>some of my questions aren't even answered...

answer is: if you change textures by filtering or 2xSaI or even ZLSF ("Zerthr's Less Strong Filtering"

), you will get glitches, since some psx games are designed to use the _exact_ original textures... everything else will look wrong, cause glitches, misalignments, bad transparent borders, you name it.

The only way around that is a fullscreen filtering effect (like your NES or whatever emus), but that ones usually will be very slow on hw/accel. plugins on an average system.

But that's what I've preached since NickK has done 2xSaI textures in his plugins the first time, and it took me some time to realize that _some_ games will really look amazing with that textures. Others wont. Turn the option on with the first kind of games. Turn it off with the second. You decide.

Shadow Lady · Dec 9, 2002

question Pete, u use the simple 2xsaio for the HW/accel plugins or the Super 2xsai?

Pete Bernert · Dec 9, 2002

Super 2xSaI... due to my texture caching there wouldn't be any differences in speed if I would use the standard 2xSaI, so I decided to use the 'better' algorithm.

jegHegy · Dec 10, 2002

any chances of you putting in the SuperEagle filter as a choice? ^_^ or AdvanceMAME's Simple2x

nyaa

Pete Bernert · Dec 10, 2002

zero chance atm, since I don't see any reasons for it... the optical differences between 2xSaI, SuperSaI and SuperEagle are nearly non-existent when used with textures, imho.

But I think the Scale2X AMame mode will show up in Peops Soft somewhen (as fullscreen filter), since that filter is GPL, and will fit nicely into the other available Peops screen modes.

jegHegy · Dec 11, 2002

nice to hear that ^_^ looking forward to it

nyaa

Zerthr · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix Flame
IIRC = If I recall correctly
AFAIK = as far as I know

Try playing at 320x240, the PSX's original resolution and you may see the light. Also bear in mind that the PSX has no Z-buffer, it has no conception of depth.

yes... 320x240 is the way to go...

wish me luck..
(no doubt it looks good when it's small.. but it er.. hurts my eyes..)

Originally posted by takwu

Maybe others see it, just that they don't call it a flaw.

"It's not a bug; it's a feature."

No sh-t, other's see it.. or they won't turn it on.

No doogie, it's not a bug, i'm just saying it looks bad (sometimes) and others say it looks good consistently which makes me quite annoyed because it doesn't look THAT good...

Originally posted by Pete Bernert
>some of my questions aren't even answered...

answer is: if you change textures by filtering or 2xSaI or even ZLSF ("Zerthr's Less Strong Filtering" ), you will get glitches, since some psx games are designed to use the _exact_ original textures... everything else will look wrong, cause glitches, misalignments, bad transparent borders, you name it.

The only way around that is a fullscreen filtering effect (like your NES or whatever emus), but that ones usually will be very slow on hw/accel. plugins on an average system.

But that's what I've preached since NickK has done 2xSaI textures in his plugins the first time, and it took me some time to realize that _some_ games will really look amazing with that textures. Others wont. Turn the option on with the first kind of games. Turn it off with the second. You decide.

I'm quite obselete arguing with you... because I agree with everything you said. Athough I never thought about creating a new filter... just improving off what we have.

About what CPU power/ GPU power is needed for a fullscreen filtering?

I mean.. well... average system now is like... 800mhz.. maybe even lower... (I'm talking about the mean of all home user comps)

that's pretty low... so if you have like er.. 2-3 times that is it possible?

takwu · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by Zerthr
No sh-t, other's see it.. or they won't turn it on.

No doogie, it's not a bug, i'm just saying it looks bad (sometimes) and others say it looks good consistently which makes me quite annoyed because it doesn't look THAT good...

You suggest others don't see the "flaw" you are describing, I suggest they see it but do not call it a "flaw" or any sort of a problem. Because it is simply an incompatibility between the game and texture filtering.

I don't know who you are refering to, but I am quite sure everyone on this thread agrees that in your case it is better to turn texture filtering off.
If somebody says it looks good all the time and you should turn it on all the time, then chances are she has not tried the game you tried. Hope that clears up any annoyance you felt.

Kane · Dec 12, 2002

>About what CPU power/ GPU power is needed for a fullscreen filtering?

You know 'screen smoothing'?
Imagine being about 15 times slower than that.

Zerthr · Dec 13, 2002

Originally posted by takwu

You suggest others don't see the "flaw" you are describing, I suggest they see it but do not call it a "flaw" or any sort of a problem. Because it is simply an incompatibility between the game and texture filtering.

I don't know who you are refering to, but I am quite sure everyone on this thread agrees that in your case it is better to turn texture filtering off.
If somebody says it looks good all the time and you should turn it on all the time, then chances are she has not tried the game you tried. Hope that clears up any annoyance you felt.

I don't get you... isn't incompatibility a flaw? You said something like...

"It's not a flaw, but it's just a incompatibility between the game and texture filtering."

It's almost a oxymoron.
(I might of interpreted the quote wrong, so correct me if that's not what u meant)

What I'm meaning is that you turn filtering on or off it's still going to be ugly... this is a complain, but I'm not yelling at anyone that they should fix it or anything... it's just that it's a problem (visually).. and it's there... no denial.

I'm picky, choose to ignore me.

I'm just prompting that...

"Ewwww!! that looks ugly!!!"

(or something like that)... as a fact, but others always have their own opinions...

I might of gone overboard saying that everyone thinks that it looks perfect now, because they don't. I agree with you on that point.

Originally posted by Kane
>About what CPU power/ GPU power is needed for a fullscreen filtering?

You know 'screen smoothing'?
Imagine being about 15 times slower than that.

er.. you're right that's pretty slow... but I'm sure you're exaggerating slightly..

Here's going to be a n00bish explanation of why u're exaggerating... (I want you guys to correct me)

to fullscreen filter 640x480, nes, snes, even cps-2, doesn't cause TOO TOO much slow down, but why does PSX need so much power? I thought we're just fullscreen filtering the pixels?
or we cannot treat a 3d image as 2d?

Kane · Dec 13, 2002

In order to fullscreen filter on a hardware GPU, you need to call from the framebuffer. That's incredibly slow. Then the filtering itsef takes a large amount of CPU time.
It's simply not economic.

>I don't get you... isn't incompatibility a flaw? You said something like...

Not really. This is something that can't be solved. A flaw IMO is something that can be solved.

Phoenix Flame · Dec 13, 2002

There's incompatibility meaning that the emu can't run games - this can be fixed. The filtering incompatibility means that the PSX could not and did not filter textures, and so including a filtering option in the GPU creates problems because PSX games are written not to expect filtering to be done on the textures. Hence, some polys are misaligned or whatever.

It's like installing a jet engine onto the roof of a family hatchback - you'll see an increase in speed but don't expect the car to handle as well as it always did - this is because the car was not designed to have a jet engine strapped to the roof.

Zerthr · Dec 14, 2002

Originally posted by Kane
In order to fullscreen filter on a hardware GPU, you need to call from the framebuffer. That's incredibly slow. Then the filtering itsef takes a large amount of CPU time.
It's simply not economic.

>I don't get you... isn't incompatibility a flaw? You said something like...

Not really. This is something that can't be solved. A flaw IMO is something that can be solved.

"suggesting" by me and the dictionary... flaw is:

1 a : a defect in physical
structure or form
b : an imperfection or
weakness and esp. one that
detracts from the whole or
hinders effectiveness

I'd go with (b)... which is an imperfection, I'm hoping incompatibility is considered an imperfection. If not, then I'm wrong.

I know the fullscreen 2xSaI would be slow but not 15 times slow... probably 5-10 times slower than the fullscreen smoothing we have now... 15 times is like saying you need a card 15 times as fast as the 9700... which is like... when we can render almost reality graphics in real time. with our minor home computers...

Kane · Dec 14, 2002

That's quite possibly true. As Pete has said 101 times before, fullscreen filtering is simply completely impratical, and is most likely never gonna be implemented in his plugins.
Only guy that might do it is Nikk....

Kreed's 2xSai

takwu

Zerthr

Kane

Zerthr

Phoenix Flame

takwu

Pete Bernert

Shadow Lady

Pete Bernert

jegHegy

Pete Bernert

jegHegy

Zerthr

takwu

Kane

Zerthr

Kane

Phoenix Flame

Zerthr

Kane

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