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#781 · (Edited)
@ruantec said:
Whatever Windows 8 is a crap or not in our eyes is a personal opinion. Fact is:

Windows > OSX. End of the story :p
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Nope. Fact is: OS X > Windows... right here in the headquarters of the world's biggest tech companies. ;)

I was trying to avoid that subject, but if you'd like to know, it used to be that only about 1/3 of Google was using Mac computers. That number has risen lately to 75% of the entire company.

Similarly, many companies in the Silicon Valley area have now moved on to Mac computers and adopted Mac OS X training programs rather than moving to Windows 8. The reason being that they can train personnels to use OS X while allowing them to use Windows 7 at the same time. In OS X Lion and Mountain Lion, going back to Windows 7 is as easy as flicking three fingers on the touchpad.

In contrast, you can't do the same in Windows 8 where just a flick of your fingers would bring you back to Windows 7, so it's more of a PITA for companies to cope with.

It's different elsewhere because Mac hardwares are still ludicrously expensive, of course, but here in the US, there's a trend for companies to adopt Mac computers for their next upgrades rather than Windows 8.

...it's also because Mac plays nicer with iPhone and iPad, which many companies are also looking into deploying. But that's a whole different story.

Short version: Mac computers are everywhere in the San Jose vicinity right now. You'd have to peel your eyes and look real hard to find something with Windows on it. There's a reason Apple keeps getting richer, you know...

----

On a different note:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/21/3257406/windows-8-pro-price-upgrade-price

If Microsoft thinks I'd happily fork out $199 for the Pro version of Windows 8... especially seeing as Mac OS X Mountain Lion runs me $19.99 per copy that I can install on up to 5 computers (effectively meaning it's $4 per machine), they are on some strong stuff...
 
#785 · (Edited)
@ruantec:

You do realize that Silicon Valley is home to the most prominent tech companies in the world, right? And that whatever they do more or less has a direct effect on what people will do on their computers down the road?

As an aside, I can look up more than 20 tech reviews of OS X Mountain Lion being compared directly (and favorably) to Windows 8. It's not just me who thinks OS X has outgrown Windows. Microsoft has been resting far too much on its laurels. Here's one for reference:
http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-8-vs-os-x-mountain-lion/8

But seriously, I'm getting tired of the pissing contest. Even if Windows > OS X (in market share that's factually true), it doesn't magically make Windows 8 any better an OS than... say... Windows 7, or Windows XP. In fact, last statistics showed that up to this point, there are still more XP users than Windows 7. That tells you something. ;)

Edit: but if it makes you feel better by saying that Windows is still better than OS X in some metrics... while you deny the fact that OS X has improved on features that Windows should have ages ago, then by all means, knock yourself out. :p
 
#786 ·
runawayprisoner said:
But seriously, I'm getting tired of the pissing contest. Even if Windows > OS X (in market share that's factually true), it doesn't magically make Windows 8 any better an OS than... say... Windows 7, or Windows XP. In fact, last statistics showed that up to this point, there are still more XP users than Windows 7. That tells you something. ;)
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No they don't, there are a lot more Windows 7 users now than XP, Windows 7 has been their most successful OS to date, hell the statistics also show that even Vista still has more users today than all the versions of OS X put together. Saying Windows beats it in market share is a radical understatement.

Windows 8 is balls for a desktop machine or anything without a touchscreen, using the metro interface with a keyboard and mouse is so unbelievably cumbersome I'm surprised it exists. Sure I can skip past it and not use any metro apps, but then again I can just use Windows 7 and not have to worry about bloody live tiles running in the background with no control over what they're doing or being able to terminate their processes. But Windows 7 support has been extended so I'm just not going to upgrade my desktop.

But then again if Windows 8 had been called "Windows 7: tablet edition" would we even be having this conversation?

For a touch orientated UI the metro/"Windows 8 style" interface does a really good job, certainly better than using a touchscreen to emulate a mouse, as for any compatibility/performance issues, there really aren't any. It's built on the same kernel as Win 7 with a few performance tweaks but driver architecture/support hasn't changed, I've had no problem throwing any piece of hardware at it. It also has a few handy tweaks like a proper copy queue, new task manager and baked in multimonitor support that I'd like to see on Win 7. But it just isn't workable for a desktop for me, not really a problem though since Windows 7 isn't going anywhere.
 
#787 ·
barrybarryk said:
No they don't, there are a lot more Windows 7 users now than XP, Windows 7 has been their most successful OS to date, hell the statistics also show that even Vista still has more users today than all the versions of OS X put together. Saying Windows beats it in market share is a radical understatement.
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Nope. 7 doesn't surpass XP. They are neck to neck. With XP still leading 7.
http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/01/microsoft-windows-market-share-july-2012/

It depends on which stat counter you are looking at, of course, but also depending on those stat counters, OS X would have surpassed Vista in usage.

As an aside, each subsequent version of OS X can't really be considered major since they are all based on the same OS that's named... OS X.

If we say each subsequent version is a separate OS, then you might well say Windows 7 and Windows 7 SP1 are different OSes.

As an aside, iOS is also based on OS X, and if we account for iOS as OS X, then the share count for Mac OS X would increase drastically.
 
#788 ·
runawayprisoner said:
Nope. 7 doesn't surpass XP. They are neck to neck. With XP still leading 7.
http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/01/microsoft-windows-market-share-july-2012/

It depends on which stat counter you are looking at, of course, but also depending on those stat counters, OS X would have surpassed Vista in usage.

As an aside, each subsequent version of OS X can't really be considered major since they are all based on the same OS that's named... OS X.

If we say each subsequent version is a separate OS, then you might well say Windows 7 and Windows 7 SP1 are different OSes.

As an aside, iOS is also based on OS X, and if we account for iOS as OS X, then the share count for Mac OS X would increase drastically.
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http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201106-201206
That one paints a very different story, either way Windows 7 IS Microsofts fastest spreading OS. And iOS isn't OSX, if you really wanted to lump them all in together you'd have to lump in all the versions of Windows since NT. OSX/iOS still wouldn't break double digits in a percentage of market share. Not that market share is indicative of how good an OS is or anything like that, there's just no way of glossing over those figures to make OS X look like a market leader
 
#789 ·
iOS IS OS X. It's OS X but without some of the major desktop components.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080111051348/http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/index.html#macosx

If you have ever developed any app for iPhone, you'd know that the process is exactly like developing for OS X. Classes are the same, components are the same, heck... some abstraction layers (save for the touch support) are almost completely the same. Heck, even the kernels are similar... with iOS' kernel being a "reduced" version of OS X's kernel, but they technically support the same components and run the same way.

In contrast, you can't just say that Windows XP is Windows 7 without DWM. They have different kernels... They are all based on NT, but they weren't "derived" from NT as a subset. That's the difference.

And no, I'm not trying to paint OS X as a "market leader". Rather, I'd like to say that OS X is growing, and improving steadily while Windows is just sidestepping without really improving on anything.

Plus stat counter counts OSes by tracking web traffic. It's not indicative of the precise share at all... You can only use it to say that this percentage of web users uses this OS and that OS.
 
#790 · (Edited)
Phil said:
Rap is a closet Windows 8 lover. Don't mind him :)
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I know, he's actually one of the very few Apple lovers i find cool :p

runawayprisoner said:
@ruantec:

You do realize that Silicon Valley is home to the most prominent tech companies in the world, right? And that whatever they do more or less has a direct effect on what people will do on their computers down the road?
Click to expand...
True but still the world is far bigger than Silicon Valley and it doesn't mean the rest of the world will adopt them. I believe you when you tell me that is hard to find a place where Windows is used but i can tell you that i've traveled to many countries here in europe and i can tell you that i haven't seen a single company nor employees using any Apple product. Even better judging by those companies plans they aren't remotely thinking on using or adopting any of them.


The only guy i met that use Apple products was a good programmer with big social problems that looks like the Batman premiere killer. He use a macbook pro and have a my little pony sticker on it.... seriously... that's the first guy capable to scare a guy like me.

To be honest i was like... WTF?
 
#791 ·
I think windows 8 will be nothing for desktop users, but for mobile/tablets/poketcrap it will be very good.

I never had an android device, but iOS is truly annoying, as you're locked to what apple wants in terms of data management and apps.

Since windows 8 can run everything from x86 desktops, that alone is a HUGE step foward for mobile stuff, and also having full control over everything (like desktop windows) sounds just right.

As for windows being better than mac OS X, I think it depends on what the user want from it's computer (linux comes to mind...)
 
#792 ·
After 2 years of using OS X, I have to say in terms of usability it trumps Windows. In terms of speed though, pretty sure Windows wins (n.p.i.) because OS X isn't as good at handling multi-threaded processing somehow. I do think that Lion is the ME of the series however. Other than (finally!) being able to resize windows from any corners, I don't welcome any of the other UI tweaks at all.

Google seems to think them large square tiles are good stuff; I see them every time I access the Play Store on my phone. ;)
 
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#793 · (Edited)
@ruantec said:
True but still the world is far bigger than Silicon Valley and it doesn't mean the rest of the world will adopt them. I believe you when you tell me that is hard to find a place where Windows is used but i can tell you that i've traveled to many countries here in europe and i can tell you that i haven't seen a single company nor employees using any Apple product. Even better judging by those companies plans they aren't remotely thinking on using or adopting any of them.


The only guy i met that use Apple products was a good programmer with big social problems that looks like the Batman premiere killer. He use a macbook pro and have a my little pony sticker on it.... seriously... that's the first guy capable to scare a guy like me.

To be honest i was like... WTF?
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The "world" doesn't dictate what the next step in tech is. Silicon Valley does. ;)

And I'm not sure which countries in Europe you have been to, but I have clients in UK, France, Germany, Norway all asking for iOS and Mac app development... just last month. If they weren't looking for expansion, they wouldn't be asking for development on those platforms.

As an aside, I was in Asia last month, too, and there were significantly more Mac and iOS users than I remembered.

But let's disregard that for a second and come back to Win 8: what exactly does Win 8 do... better than Mac OS X? I already knew the answer, but I'd still like to hear it from you.


DinJerr said:
After 2 years of using OS X, I have to say in terms of usability it trumps Windows. In terms of speed though, pretty sure Windows wins (n.p.i.) because OS X isn't as good at handling multi-threaded processing somehow. I do think that Lion is the ME of the series however. Other than (finally!) being able to resize windows from any corners, I don't welcome any of the other UI tweaks at all.
Click to expand...
This is pretty much true. OS X traded speed for stability a long time ago. However, as hardware gets faster (Sandy, Ivy, and now we're waiting for Haswell), the difference in speed between OS X and Windows is getting blurred. It's just like what Android is doing to iOS... bruteforcing hardware specs (quad-core CPUs, 2GB RAM) to mask software shortcomings.

When you'd consider that a recent MacBook Pro 15" (anything from 2011 onward) can eat PCSX2 for breakfast (that means full speed in everything), then running an OS should not be that much of a chore.
 
#795 ·
I think you'll have to wait until SP1 or SP2 or perhaps even Win 9 for that.

Win 8 RTM doesn't allow anyone to move away from the Metro clutter****. In fact, it pretty much forces everyone on screens higher than 1024 x 600 to "play the game".

Unlike in OS X where you can completely disregard and even delete Launchpad if you don't like it, Microsoft is forcing Metro up our ***.

I gave it a try again on my Fujitsu U820 (about the only UMPC I own that has a screen resolution to satisfy Metro) and really tried my best to like Metro.

I couldn't. In fact, it made things more cumbersome. And desktop mode didn't improve on anything in Win 7 from what I can see. Battery life took a worse hit, too, thanks to more fullscreen animations.
 
#796 ·
runawayprisoner said:
And I'm not sure which countries in Europe you have been to, but I have clients in UK, France, Germany, Norway all asking for iOS and Mac app development... just last month. If they weren't looking for expansion, they wouldn't be asking for development on those platforms.

As an aside, I was in Asia last month, too, and there were significantly more Mac and iOS users than I remembered.
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I have to admit that i saw some companies outside our business which are interested in SOME OSX development. However those are relatively small in comparison to the ones we were working on as those care more about big jobs and not just some random custom software. Those places and companies we were taking care aren't remotely thinking in OSX because is simply useless in there eyes and they just use Windows and few use Linux.

runawayprisoner said:
But let's disregard that for a second and come back to Win 8: what exactly does Win 8 do... better than Mac OS X? I already knew the answer, but I'd still like to hear it from you.
Click to expand...
If you check my posts you will realize that i never said "Windows 8 > OSX" but "Windows > OSX". Why i think is better?? Security, apps, support in general. Why do i hate your favorite company with passion??? the reason for that is because i hate there philosophy. In my eyes is like trading south korean goverment for a north korean one.

The last thing i want in this world is a company like Apple to take the place Microsoft has. The reason for that is because i'm all for "Live and let live" philosophy. Apple in my eyes is a company who would represent a dictatorship. Do you realize that Apple would be suing the ass of everyone if they don't pay fees???? they even patented the "Minimalistic design" so i bet they will sue the a$$ of every company and justify it by saying "We patent something similar". That my friend is not a company i would ever support.

Now... why do i like Windows??? i do not like windows at all but i like there philosophy. MS isn't the one suying the a$$ of everyone as they were one of the first companies to work in touch devices such as surface.
 
#797 ·
Yeah, most of us here like having hardware and software that's "open" and compared to Apple, Microsoft is very open.
 
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#798 · (Edited)
The irony is that Apple's software is more "open" than Windows because they do open-source some parts of the OS. Take Webkit for instance. If not for Apple open-sourcing the underlying technology of Safari, we wouldn't have Chrome right now.

In contrast, Windows is more closed-source than OS X.

The only thing closed about Apple with regards to Mac is their hardware support.

And @ruantec, regardless of the company's philosophy, their software is still awesome. I tend to overlook companies and just look at their products because I'm a tech lover, not a political extremist. ;)

When all of this blows over and Apple turns out to be the top dog, then at least I'll survive in the new world for having some prior knowledge.

If Microsoft can come out on top again, well, good for them. I'll go back to using and praising their OSes, just like I did before.

I still maintain that Windows XP is the best OS I have ever used (and the list also includes OS X Mountain Lion). So I do agree with you that Windows > OS X, but the bad part is that the Windows that surpassed OS X is now obsolete.

And I find it weird that if you cared about politics so much, why didn't you look at what Microsoft did and how they ousted project Courier along with the Kin phones? Those were some ugly internal conflicts if you asked me. Microsoft had a clear and concrete chance to pre-empt Apple and revolutionize the world. Instead, some stupid power struggle ended their advancement. Courier could have been so much more than the iPad.
 
#799 · (Edited)
Apple has a lock on their store, you have to "jailbreak" Iphones and IPads to do what you can on other hardware. Apple hates emulation. There's not much to like if they ran our computers the way they run their Iphones and IPads.

Plus their hardware is more expensive than other alternatives.

They sell primarily on their name.
 
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#800 ·
Paratech said:
Yeah, most of us here like having hardware and software that's "open" and compared to Apple, Microsoft is very open.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's the reason why MS won against them in the past.

runawayprisoner said:
The irony is that Apple's software is more "open" than Windows because they do open-source some parts of the OS. Take Webkit for instance. If not for Apple open-sourcing the underlying technology of Safari, we wouldn't have Chrome right now.

In contrast, Windows is more closed-source than OS X.

The only thing closed about Apple with regards to Mac is their hardware support.

And @ruantec, regardless of the company's philosophy, their software is still awesome. I tend to overlook companies and just look at their products because I'm a tech lover, not a political extremist. ;)

When all of this blows over and Apple turns out to be the top dog, then at least I'll survive in the new world for having some prior knowledge.

If Microsoft can come out on top again, well, good for them. I'll go back to using and praising their OSes, just like I did before.

I still maintain that Windows XP is the best OS I have ever used (and the list also includes OS X Mountain Lion). So I do agree with you that Windows > OS X, but the bad part is that the Windows that surpassed OS X is now obsolete.

And I find it weird that if you cared about politics so much, why didn't you look at what Microsoft did and how they ousted project Courier along with the Kin phones? Those were some ugly internal conflicts if you asked me. Microsoft had a clear and concrete chance to pre-empt Apple and revolutionize the world. Instead, some stupid power struggle ended their advancement. Courier could have been so much more than the iPad.
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Actually i do not care about politics but used that as an example. As i said before i love there devices and agree there sotware is awesome... in fact you know that most of my previous development was based in there ideas. However i dislike the philosophy behind it because its not something that will help us to move forward. Obviously now is different because they aren't the ones in the position of MS. My problem with there philosophy is that they will close everything forcing everyone to dance there music the way they want it and when they want it. They are silly enough to patent stupid things and if they get the top level they will push it to limits never seen before and that my friend will be the end of a developed free world.

Basically that means every single company will have to watch out before they ever do something or they just have to pay stupid fees to avoid problems. We won't have cheap computer parts but stupid Apple certified parts else nobody will be able to use there software. Sure there products are great but i hate when i'm forced to buy something. I hate google but they are open and i like that... i like when people have choice and that is something i fail to see from Apple... All they want is that you buy Apple software, Apple hardware and all Apple sh!t as they don't care a pedo about the rest.

I'm not saying you got blind but i was blind in the past and forgot about those facts just because i found there software and hardware awesome.
 
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