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tom_mai78101

· No$gba Philosopher
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I see most of you, when discussing about building a rig, there will be links to some Newegg articles about hardware components.

I wanted to know how do you compare those things? Like:

Pricing: How do know which is at the right cost? Where did you get the "sixth sense" from?

Power: How do you know a PSU can give enough power to the hardware that was picked/recommended from others?

Watt: Do you just add them up, or there's a math function I need to know?

Upgradeable: I know there's this PCIe x16, DDR3, and these (sometimes pissing off people) Intel LGA-something, AMD processors. Do all of these are based only on budget and its family?

Fan/Cooling: I see a lot of graphics cards have fans that direct air to the bottom of the case. Is it possible to direct air towards the top of the case? Or flip over the graphics card around?

Non-customizable case: If you have this, do you know how to make it so that it's actually easy to customize? (Like, easy to switch hardware components and stuffs...)

And that's all I could ask. :D
 
Research, research and more research. First you decide on how much you actually can spend on a new system. Then you apportion that budget between the various components that make up a PC system and then start looking at products that cost close to what you apportioned for the items. That's how you get your options and then you look at reviews and research the components as much as possible till you finally decide on one and then you move on to the next item.

Certain things like finding out the good brands etc and the ability to look past marketing overhyping of the products only come with experience as you learn more and more.

And of course you never have to rely solely on your own knowledge, there's always helpful communities like ours that can help you sort out the pros and cons of various options and help get you the best bang for your buck.
 
and some of it is just common knowledge that you might not know but the people here sure know it. so thats another reason to stop by when pricing out pcs and pc components. im currently in the market for a new pc cuase i got my moms old single core amd athlon 64 3500+ hp compaq persario sr2020nx so no overclocking for me and to boot its running vista on 2 gigs of ram. the only thing nice about it is the graphics card and sound card i added out of my old burt out rig. the motherboard in my dual core finally went dead after having fried my 7600gs and pci ex16 slot just glad i had 2 other slots to fall back on to get it working right for a couple of months. i got some info here about which graphics card i could get to replace my burnt out 7600gs and i decide to pick up the gts 250 with my 400watt psu. the psu was enough for the card and everything else i had on it so thats good. but that finally went as well so i got me a 750watt psu for only $35 at my local pc store.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Apportioning the budget: That could be my one and only answer...

Thank you! :D
 
Meh, is doesn't have to be modular, but yeah I'd never go below a 550W PSU. He's on a budget as well though so anything above 750W is out as well. The cheapest good PSU he'd be able to get is a CoolerMaster GX650W.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Hm, considering that the route taken to transport a hardware conponent to its destination, where the real manufacturers are, what logos they were using, and not actually able to see USA logos, the cheapest 650W PSU I can find is actually more expensive than where you're at.

In other words, I have to say, I couldn't care less if the hardware were anything but enough to prove itself worthy. Do you have this sort of thought in your head when you buy what you think (80% positively sure) about a product that was also the answer to tons of researching?

And do you have this feeling that, all you need to do is buy what's best for you at the cheapest price, don't have to worry about what others are saying, and just use it as if you knew nothing else on Earth is going to stop you from using it?

Don't the products you see in PC retailers and hardware stores usually come with labels of good quality and sufficient proven testing? You do care about those things, don't you?
 
I don't completely understand what you're trying to say?

Anyways most prebuilt systems are overpriced compared to the components that are in them. For instance you may get a really good processor but the motherboard used will be horrible. Or you only get a borderline Power Supply that's only just enough to run the system so if you ever want to add anything you'd have to get a completely new one. Plus it's under a warranty that prevents you from opening it if you want to keep the warranty so you can't add for instance another Hard Drive or a PCI card or another fan. Also the cooling is often only just enough, if you really want to push your system it will get too hot. So whilst prebuilt systems make things easy for you they come with a lot of drawbacks. So yes they're tried and tested and they work but usually I can get a lot better for my money and I can't always push the prebuilt system the way I might want to.

What you could always do though is use a prebuilt system as template. So you'd look at one you like and then pick the same components as are in the prebuilt that you want and replace it's bad ones with better options and you could come up with a nice system that way.

I know location can make selecting good components really hard. I myself have lots of items I can't get as well. I was talking about brands cuz if you buy a trusted brand like say for instance ASUS you know you're getting quality and it will last but if you buy one of the weaker brands like say Biostar then it may break down the line and that's a chance you would be taking if you buy it and use it in your system.

The problem with going cheap is the quality, you somehow have to find a balance between the quality and the price you're willing to pay. Most of the time in hardware if two products that have the same specs on paper but have greatly differing prices the difference in price is due to the quality of the products. The more expensive one is much better and will last longer whereas the cheap one is weak and could break for instance a year from now.
So for instance sometimes it would be a better idea to buy the more expensive product because it's a safer choice, you're essentially buying a safety cushion. For instance you have to choose between a 500W Power Supply and a 650W Power Supply most of the the 650W will be the better choice even if it's more than you need because if it's stronger than you need then it won't be stressed as much and thus should not break but if you pick the weaker one it may be bad quality and if you are running it close to the limit it would get stressed a lot and eventually break.



I see your location is set to Taiwan. I suggest you search if you have a local PC hardware forum over there and read what people have to say there, and ask them questions, get them to help you pick between your local products. They may be able to help you much better than we can.
When I built my PC I also joined a local hardware forum here in South Africa because these people were just like me and knew what products we had and could advise me what was best to get whereas if I posted here for instance many people would suggest products I could not get and it would not help any further.
 
You don't really learn those things overnight, honestly. The computer market changes extremely fast, which makes it a lot more difficult to follow all the new developments in hardware. I'd suggest you start reading the hardware reviews on sites like AnandTech from now on and over time you'll learn.
 
Hm, considering that the route taken to transport a hardware conponent to its destination, where the real manufacturers are, what logos they were using, and not actually able to see USA logos, the cheapest 650W PSU I can find is actually more expensive than where you're at.

In other words, I have to say, I couldn't care less if the hardware were anything but enough to prove itself worthy. Do you have this sort of thought in your head when you buy what you think (80% positively sure) about a product that was also the answer to tons of researching?

And do you have this feeling that, all you need to do is buy what's best for you at the cheapest price, don't have to worry about what others are saying, and just use it as if you knew nothing else on Earth is going to stop you from using it?

Don't the products you see in PC retailers and hardware stores usually come with labels of good quality and sufficient proven testing? You do care about those things, don't you?
I'm a hardware enthusiast with limited budget. I want my PC to be the best for my needs, at the moment I build it, with the money I have in hand. The term best is fast to be outdated in tech world.

I build my PC by my own hands, from bare to fully functional desktop and I want to know what each component is capable of.

At any given price, branded system will always be inferior to carefully hand picked system, they will always have to cheap out something in there. PSU is usually the most crapped out part, ironically.

I could care less about what other think about MY computer, actually I don't even think about it.
 
600W is gonna work with most builds and is modular.
or 550W
PSU below 550W is usually not a safe bet.
Don't go over 1000W as well.

Get either Corsair HX or ThermalTake ToughPower, I'd say.
wattage is irrelevant, amps on the 12v rail [or rails combined] is what you need to look at, i've seen cheap 500w psu's with only 1 rail and 10A total, and good quality [antec] 350w psu with 2x10A rails at 20A total- i know which i'd choose. in this example the 350w has double the output of the 500w.

vantec also make good and cheap psu's from 460w to 800w.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
I see your location is set to Taiwan. I suggest you search if you have a local PC hardware forum over there and read what people have to say there, and ask them questions, get them to help you pick between your local products. They may be able to help you much better than we can.
I really wished there is a local forum here. But they don't exist. I see a lot of people asking questions, and a lot of them with little or no replies.

Either that, or it's my problem for not finding a good quality local forum somewhere. :( Really hoping it's the latter.

You don't really learn those things overnight, honestly. The computer market changes extremely fast, which makes it a lot more difficult to follow all the new developments in hardware. I'd suggest you start reading the hardware reviews on sites like AnandTech from now on and over time you'll learn.
I didn't say I want to learn these overnight. :) I do know I was skipping something important, but that's all I could say.
 
the 750watt Chiefmax PSU i got for $35

Specifications
DC Output +3.3v +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Max 36A 38A 40A 1.0A 2.0A

got it at my local pc store called PC Direct

it works well for my current single core amd and gts 250. so im not really stressing the psu much with it tho. i think i fried my other 400watt psu that was running my amd dual core athlon 64 x2 3800+ and my gts 250. got the 750watt to replace the 400 but the motherboard went as well so that dint work to well so i took the gts 250 and my x-fi and harddrive out of the dual core and stuck them into this singloe core i got my from my mom sence she got a windows 7 machine. this single core is running vista so its not very fast. got 2 gigs of ram tho.
 
I see most of you, when discussing about building a rig, there will be links to some Newegg articles about hardware components.

I wanted to know how do you compare those things? Like:

Pricing: How do know which is at the right cost? Where did you get the "sixth sense" from?

Power: How do you know a PSU can give enough power to the hardware that was picked/recommended from others?

Watt: Do you just add them up, or there's a math function I need to know?

Upgradeable: I know there's this PCIe x16, DDR3, and these (sometimes pissing off people) Intel LGA-something, AMD processors. Do all of these are based only on budget and its family?

Fan/Cooling: I see a lot of graphics cards have fans that direct air to the bottom of the case. Is it possible to direct air towards the top of the case? Or flip over the graphics card around?

Non-customizable case: If you have this, do you know how to make it so that it's actually easy to customize? (Like, easy to switch hardware components and stuffs...)

And that's all I could ask. :D
Years of experience is my answer.
 
Is any of the stuff I'm saying helping you tom_mai?
 
the 750watt Chiefmax PSU i got for $35

Specifications
DC Output +3.3v +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Max 36A 38A 40A 1.0A 2.0A
This is actually one of those PSU's I woudn't trust to deliver the maximum rating. High amperage on the 3.3V and 5V rails but only 40A on the 12V rail. I'm betting the 750W is also the max rating or continuous @ 25C and not continuous at 40~50C. I'm with whypowt on this one, quality over wattage.

For a single GPU set-up (barring one with a GF100 Fermi) with any CPU at stock clock and 2~3 drives, even a decent quality 400W would suffice. Heck, actual power consumption of my i7-860+GTS 250 build while gaming doesn't break 200W (usually stays around 170~180W) measured from the wall. Granted, benchmarking with Linpack+Furmark would post significantly higher power consumption but it's still not going to break 400W. That said, I usually try to size my power supplies so peak power is at 40~60% and idle power is around 20% of the PSU rating for maximum efficiency and low noise.
 
Whilst quality over wattage is correct...if you throw enough wattage at the problem you remove the drawbacks of a cheap PSU.
 
I really dislike the *censored* that started this more Amps on 12v rail = better argument... Now everyone and his kid sister will label their PSUs with high Amp rating... :(

No... seriously, don't go that way. Here's how I would choose a PSU:

- Brand... is as important as your life. A good brand PSU can withstand years of beating from beastly hardwares. Choose your brand wisely. Thermaltake, Antec, OCZ, PC Power and Cooling, etc... are some of the ones I would trust. The rest, I would just push down the drain. But it's all about your experience with them, really. If you don't have any experience, pick one and find out for yourself. Sounds risky, but it's true... You grow on failures.

- Never ever EVER buy a top-tier model. Actually, get the almost cheapest model you can find from the brand. This is where you look at the price tag and go: ohh, let's get it! No, seriously... The top-tier parts can sometimes be cheaper than even the low-tier parts. Why the contradiction? Well, because top-tier parts sell well to enthusiasts. Cheap parts are only purchased by either cheap people, or system builders looking to build something that just works, and seriously, people who buy pre-made computers are even less likely to look at these... so sale from that section won't amount to much if at all. Meanwhile, the top-tier models are usually very appealing to the enthusiast market, and these would either be in competitions, or for gaming systems (a.k.a. they don't last long), which is to say, they can generate a lot of revenue with these if they price them right. Ever wondered why a 700W PSU that went for $150 last year is now only $40 refurbished in a corner of the internet? That's the reason...

- Wattage rating... Now this is a little bit trickier. You can calculate wattage by multiplying the V ratings with their respective Amp rating then add them all up. Then the sum would be the correct wattage rating, not the number printed on the label. So, say... The PSU above would have this kind of wattage:
3.3 * 36 + 5 * 38 + 12 * 40 = 788.8W

So why is it rated at 750W? Because there is inefficiency in the PSU working. The power it draws aside, the power output it can do is at most up to the calculated value, but it can flunctuate anywhere in between and even lower. If it's not rated for 80plus efficiency (power draw rating), then it might actually not reach its potential max output. Why? Because it can only draw so much from your socket. If it can't draw enough power to sustain the load, then I'd say you are looking at realistically... around 70% the max output, which is 550W in this case. So... do the math, weigh the options, look for the labels, then nail it. And by the way, the algorithm above would only take into account 3.3v, 5v and 12v, the rest is just disposable garbage from my experience.

- Amp rating... Now this is where the lie begins. If you see the PSU has multiple 12v rails, it'll say something like 12v1 16A, 12v2 16A, 12v3 16A. Does that mean the 12v rail can only output 16A? Heck no... That means the 12v rail, as a whole, can output 48A. Since there is no multi-rail 12v, it's just a single 12v rail split into 3 in this case. But what if you see a manufacturer write 12v1 32A, 12v2 32A? I'd stare at that with my jaw dropped to the floor. A PSU that is so powerful, it can push 768W through 12v? Kinky... Ahem, anyway, you shouldn't worry about the 12v ampage as much as people would like you to. Why? Because... it's mostly just for your GPU that you'd need that much watt for. But how do you know how much a GPU draws? Well, that's the tricky part. Ever seen those power consumption tests in benchmarks and reviews? Yeah, those... You take that power consumption figure (of the GPU alone, by the way), then multiply that by 80%, since power draw is not the same as power requirement, and then you'll have the right wattage necessary for a GPU to operate. So, for instance, the GTX 260 would use a max of 230W in most reviews. You get 184W as the figure after multiplying by 80%. Now divide it by 12... and you get... 15.3! yep, folks, the GTX 260 doesn't really need more than that on a 12v rail to survive through hell and back. Even if you overclock the heck out of that mofo, I'd say you need at most a 20A rail stable... Add 4A or so tolerance to that number (for other peripherals, fans and stuffs) and you'll have your correct rail rating, which is around 18A to 19A, realistically, give it 20A or 22A for more breathing room. So, sincerely, unless you plan on going extreme... 30A or more is just too overkill for a budget build... and if it's a no-name brand, even I would start sweating...

So, really, I don't think you'd need that beast of a PSU for any reason at all. You just need one that is stable... and works well. So choose your brand wisely, weigh your budget, think about the configuration you are aiming for, then calculate a whole lot. Leave breathing room, but don't overdo it. ;)

And Schumi, this is one of the reasons why I can build PCs for so much cheaper than the other folks. :p If you can take $50 off the PSU, that means you already can push for another grade of GPU. It matters.
 
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