Bioware: JRPG's are Stagnant

ViperXtreme · Dec 21, 2009

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translation:
Leading western RPG developer Bioware has criticised Japanese-style RPGs for a “lack of evolution,” and excessively linear stories.
Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk lambastes JRPGs for a lack of innovation in a recent interview:

“The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it’s still the same experience.
My favorite thing, it’s funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, ‘do you wanna do this or this,’ and you say no. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. ‘Do you wanna do this or this?’ No. Lemme think — you want me to say ‘yes.’ And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG.”

EDIT:

Mr. Zeschuk also admits that there are exceptions to the rule even among recent Japanese RPGs such as "Demon's Souls" (one of his favorites), though on the other hand, he points out that the evolution of the definition of "role playing" has been far greater in the States than in Japan.

makotech222 · Dec 21, 2009

indeed, this is true.

nanaya · Dec 21, 2009

But that's exactly what I seek on JRPGs...

PsyMan · Dec 21, 2009

Isn't that what JRPGs are all about? I mean... Let's take a look at other genres for a bit:

MMORPGs: You have a huge available world, you level up, kill enemies, take/buy items, you max all stats etc. you can, expansion comes out, you do the same for the expanded stuff (characters, items, enemies, worlds), you do the same for the next MMORPG you play.

First Person Shooters: You shoot at things from the point of view of your character...? Same for the next FPS you play.

Soccer/Football: You kick the ball and score, same every year with every game, only some names differ.

Racing games: You have a vehicle that tries to finish first and/or within the time limit with every possible given way. Same with the next racing games you play.

Yeah well, my point is that the whole point of JRPGs is the linear (or at least semi-linear) storyline and the strong development of that storyline and the supporting cast.
The exact opposite of the "open" game-play with the ridiculously shallow storylines and the little to none character development that WRPGs have.

Saying that every JRPG is the same thing over and over cause of linearity is like saying that every book is the same thing over and over cause they all consist of an introduction, a main body divided in chapters and an epilogue.

The guy could just say that he doesn't like JRPGs instead of all that ridiculous mumbo jumbo.

buffbiff21 · Dec 21, 2009

I can't comment on the validity of the accusation because I haven't played any of Bioware's games. Still JRPGs are very predictable and have been for quite some time. They're more reliant on characters and plot than "innovating" control schemes or concepts.

The exact opposite of the "open" game-play with the ridiculously shallow storylines and the little to none character development that WRPGs have.

I agree

I do remember EA criticizing developers for milking franchises with sequels, which is laughable.

Xblade · Dec 21, 2009

ViperXtreme said:
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translation:
Leading western RPG developer Bioware has criticised Japanese-style RPGs for a “lack of evolution,” and excessively linear stories.
Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk lambastes JRPGs for a lack of innovation in a recent interview:

IT would be a more revolutionary opinion if they weren't guilty of the same foul.

nanaya said:
But that's exactly what I seek on JRPGs...

^^^^

Its a genre for a reason, and over exaggeration of repitition just shows that bioware is scared of how badly FXIII is about to rape their potential sales.

Cheesus · Dec 21, 2009

PsyMan said:
Yeah well, my point is that the whole point of JRPGs is the linear (or at least semi-linear) storyline and the strong development of that storyline and the supporting cast.
The exact opposite of the "open" game-play with the ridiculously shallow storylines and the little to none character development that WRPGs have.

Saying that every JRPG is the same thing over and over cause of linearity is like saying that every book is the same thing over and over cause they all consist of an introduction, a main body divided in chapters and an epilogue.

The guy could just say that he doesn't like JRPGs instead of all that ridiculous mumbo jumbo.

Had you brought this arguement to the table 5 years ago, it might have made sense... But in the recent years that have passed several WRPGs have come out that offer depth to rival even the best JRPGs (along with the open world).

Bioware's own games are proof of that.

I do enjoy JRPGs, but they really have brought next to nothing new or innovative to the table over the past few years.

Kaiser Sigma · Dec 21, 2009

PsyMan said:
Isn't that what JRPGs are all about? I mean... Let's take a look at other genres for a bit:

Genres evolve when the concept allows for it and the truth is JRPGs could do much more than what they have done in the past decade.

PsyMan said:
MMORPGs: You have a huge available world, you level up, kill enemies, take/buy items, you max all stats etc. you can, expansion comes out, you do the same for the expanded stuff (characters, items, enemies, worlds), you do the same for the next MMORPG you play.

For the most part, yes. But there are plenty of instances where the genre keeps reinventing itself, granted it's on the less noticeable MMOs but Eve Online is a clear example of this. In general, MMOs are quite stagnant~.

PsyMan said:
First Person Shooters: You shoot at things from the point of view of your character...? Same for the next FPS you play.

That's far from the truth. Just compare Castle Wolfestein, one of the if not the first, real FPS on the PC to something like Half Life or Sin. Now move onto something like Half Life 2 or Halo. The genre evolved and it's more than simple shoot at things from the point of view of your character. They've evolved deeply both in terms of gameplay and game mechanics~.

PsyMan said:
Soccer/Football: You kick the ball and score, same every year with every game, only some names differ.

Of course it can't evolve. Sports are sports, unless the universal rules of the sport are changed, why would a game based on a sport change? It's a given that the only "evolution" you'll see on such a game is based on technical features~.

PsyMan said:
Racing games: You have a vehicle that tries to finish first and/or within the time limit with every possible given way. Same with the next racing games you play.

Read the point above.

PsyMan said:
Yeah well, my point is that the whole point of JRPGs is the linear (or at least semi-linear) storyline and the strong development of that storyline and the supporting cast.
The exact opposite of the "open" game-play with the ridiculously shallow storylines and the little to none character development that WRPGs have.

Saying that every JRPG is the same thing over and over cause of linearity is like saying that every book is the same thing over and over cause they all consist of an introduction, a main body divided in chapters and an epilogue.

The guy could just say that he doesn't like JRPGs instead of all that ridiculous mumbo jumbo.

For starters WRPGs have plenty of character development, the best example of this are Bioware games dating back to 1999. Planescape Torment is by far one of the most open WRPGs with amazing character development. From that game to today's newest WRPG: Dragon Age, the evolution of ten years is noticeable beyond mere technical aspects such as graphics and sounds.

Now compare FFVIII to today's newest FF (FFXII). The only thing that has truly evolved is the graphics. The way in which gameplay works might have changed but in the end it's always the same recipe. Friends / anti heros gather together and prevent catastrophes, possible love plot in the middle. Not only has the genre itself failed to evolve, so have their plots. How come we never have a female protagonist? How come the stories always revolve around saving the world and not destroying it? How come you never have a choice? It's like being on a railroad watching the same story over and over with different twists.

The only respectable company when it comes to JRPGs is Atlus and even they are quite stagnant but at least provide you some sort of control over the flow of the story.

Kaizen · Dec 21, 2009

Cheesus said:
Had you brought this arguement to the table 5 years ago, it might have made sense... But in the recent years that have passed several WRPGs have come out that offer depth to rival even the best JRPGs (along with the open world).

Bioware's own games are proof of that.

I do enjoy JRPGs, but they really have brought next to nothing new or innovative to the table over the past few years.

Yeah, but WRPG's are really ...boring.

Just first person shooters disguised with rpg throwbacks and super western rpg settings like lord of the rings thrown in a blender with some compost

Western rpg's like the witcher, fable, elder scrolls, fallout, balders gate and the like are NOT RPG's.

RPG was just a term coined to sum up a certain style of game. Then western games took the title literally for it's definition and made a ton of slash em ups, strategy games, first person games and called them rpg's

it might sorta be the same area but it's not the same

it's like taking F-zero x and comparing it to forza, they both might be 'racing' games but they are completely nothing alike

Let's call F-zero a 'fantasy racing game' FRG.
Westeners would then literally take that name and call forza an FRG becaust 'technically' it's not real and fictional ..but we know what fantasy is supposed to mean

just like we know what RPG is supposed to mean but it doesn't stop western games stealing a genre title that was specifically made to STOP these western earthen fantasies being categorized along with proper RPG games with airships and a hard on for magical sword moves and impossible pretty locales with underage fanservice

Your horse riding, brown fest of a westerner is the opposite of an rpg. It's an alternate history simulator unlike real rpg's designed to be impossible to our history and an escape from our world

Spyhop · Dec 21, 2009

Kaizen said:
Yeah, but WRPG's are really ...boring.

Just first person shooters disguised with rpg throwbacks and super western rpg settings like lord of the rings thrown in a blender with some compost

Western rpg's like the witcher, fable, elder scrolls, fallout, balders gate and the like are NOT RPG's.

RPG was just a term coined to sum up a certain style of game. Then western games took the title literally for it's definition and made a ton of slash em ups, strategy games, first person games and called them rpg's

it might sorta be the same area but it's not the same

it's like taking F-zero x and comparing it to forza, they both might be 'racing' games but they are completely nothing alike

Let's call F-zero a 'fantasy racing game' FRG.
Westeners would then literally take that name and call forza an FRG becaust 'technically' it's not real and fictional ..but we know what fantasy is supposed to mean

just like we know what RPG is supposed to mean but it doesn't stop western games stealing a genre title that was specifically made to STOP these western earthen fantasies being categorized along with proper RPG games with airships and a hard on for magical sword moves and impossible pretty locales with underage fanservice

Your horse riding, brown fest of a westerner is the opposite of an rpg. It's an alternate history simulator unlike real rpg's designed to be impossible to our history and an escape from our world

You have NO idea what you're talking about. Just FYI.

That said, I've been saying jRPGs are stagnant for how long now? Good to see Bioware agrees. The recent FFXIII is the perfect example.

ViperXtreme · Dec 21, 2009

forgot to add a translation to the last paragraph from the link...

Mr. Zeschuk also admits that there are exceptions to the rule even among recent Japanese RPGs such as "Demon's Souls" (one of his favorites), though on the other hand, he points out that the evolution of the definition of "role playing" has been far greater in the States than in Japan.

Kaizen · Dec 21, 2009

Spyhop said:
You have NO idea what you're talking about. Just FYI.

I have about 15 years of playing every major rpg ever released.
And a diploma in literature with a dissertation studying the progression of fantasy novels and their cultural development

I know what the **** I'm talking about. Just fyi.

Spyhop · Dec 21, 2009

If we're going to play the "experience playing RPGs" card, I have more years racked up than you. But if you really want, I'll pick apart that nonsense when I get to work while I'm having my coffee. I gotta get going.

Xblade · Dec 21, 2009

Spyhop said:
If we're going to play the "experience playing RPGs" card, I have more years racked up than you. But if you really want, I'll pick apart that nonsense when I get to work while I'm having my coffee. I gotta get going.

Not getting into this argument, but someone who majors in literature can probably differentiate better than a normal player.

Most FF games do have proper formulas for a great story, even if they may not be to your liking. Of course people nowadays tend to expect novel level exploration for every commercial media endeavor.

I'm trying to say there is more to a great story than just pointless banter and empty resolutions. People need to realize that a JRPG is essentially and foremost a JRPG, not an interactive novel.

Kaiser Sigma said:
For starters WRPGs have plenty of character development,

No, not really. ;(

Cid Highwind · Dec 21, 2009

PsyMan said:
Yeah well, my point is that the whole point of JRPGs is the linear (or at least semi-linear) storyline and the strong development of that storyline and the supporting cast.
The exact opposite of the "open" game-play with the ridiculously shallow storylines and the little to none character development that WRPGs have.

Saying that every JRPG is the same thing over and over cause of linearity is like saying that every book is the same thing over and over cause they all consist of an introduction, a main body divided in chapters and an epilogue.

The guy could just say that he doesn't like JRPGs instead of all that ridiculous mumbo jumbo.

I think he has a point though. The selling point of RPGs is the combination of telling a story and being able to put yourself in that world. There's very few jRPGs that go the extra mile to step away from cliche'd character design and mandatory world design (ice/fire/jungle themes anyone?).

Also, looking at Bioware's WRPGs I think your statement of "shallow storylines and little to none character development" is completely unfounded. Of course, a cast of amnesic kids obviously learn more of an adventure than veterans of war or 500 year old elves

But well, if you're referring to the extremely open games like Elder Scroll's, you make a good point. I personally enjoy a more balanced out system, as seen in Bioware's games.

Also, in addition to Kaiser's post. I think that there's future in hybrid genres, as you see now with huge success of Mass Effect and Borderlands, and the integration of skill improvements in about every other game.

Kaizen said:
Western rpg's like the witcher, fable, elder scrolls, fallout, balders gate and the like are NOT RPG's.

RPG was just a term coined to sum up a certain style of game. Then western games took the title literally for it's definition and made a ton of slash em ups, strategy games, first person games and called them rpg's

Did you ever wonder where the "role playing game" came from? I can relate it to wRPGs much more than to jRPGs. A jRPG is much more an interactive anime than anything else. You're provided fake choices that lead to the same result without any role to be played other than the one given by the script writers. It's clear you haven't even played Baldur's Gate: Apart from not even being able to write the title properly, you're awfully unfamiliar with the decisions being given in the game and how it will influence the flow of the game. The only wRPG that I could possibly accuse this of is Diablo, as it's just and action game with a flimsy story and skill building.

Also, claiming you got degrees won't get you far on the internet unless there's a verified picture with you holding a degree added to it. So please get off your throne and debate with arguments, rather than putting yourself up as an authority.

Still, I agree that the term RPG is used way too lightly nowadays. Borderlands being the most recent example. It's just an FPS with visible damage calculation and a XP based skill system. So see Diablo

Spyhop · Dec 21, 2009

Xblade said:
Not getting into this argument, but someone who majors in literature can probably differentiate better than a normal player.

Except RPGs are a game genre, not literature. An RPG can cover almost any setting, not just fantasy.

But Cid pretty much got it. RPGs started here (Thanks Mr. Gygax) and westerners tend to value the true tennants of role playing more than the japanese devs do.

In regards to the complaints about color....this argument annoys me. (I'm looking at you Schumi) Color depends on setting. If the RPG is set in a fantasy/medieval world then chances are you're going to see a lot of earth tones. That's realistically what you'd see.

If you see this:

and think, "f'ing awesome!"...then wRPGs might be for you.

If you see that and think "hmmm....that looks boring. Is it Saturday yet? I wanna watch some cartoons."

Then a jRPG might be more your speed.

Cid Highwind · Dec 21, 2009

Even wRPGs can have a lot of colour, it depends on the creativity of the team to implement it though. If you want to make something dark and gloomy there's still ways for subtle hues of colour as well. Making use of fire and warmer tones, or lush green environments, can help a lot. I think it's often simply a lack off attention to detail that makes the environment seem boring. JRPGs often can create this cosy feeling, for instance in buildings, because there's all kinds of small items scattered that serve no function. Start Neverwinter Nights and all you see are barrels and boxes.

Where the jRPG actually gained something from switching tilesets for 3d, the wRPG actually suffered in detail because the extremely high standards set by the pre-rendered PC backgrounds.

Spyhop · Dec 21, 2009

I wish someone would make another good wrpg with pre-rendered backgrounds again.

aceloop · Dec 21, 2009

thank god for pokemon.

Xblade · Dec 21, 2009

Spyhop said:
Except RPGs are a game genre, not literature. An RPG can cover almost any setting, not just fantasy.

Literature isn't limited to fantasy 0_o.

Bioware: JRPG's are Stagnant

ViperXtreme

makotech222

nanaya

PsyMan

buffbiff21

Xblade

Cheesus

Kaiser Sigma

Kaizen

Spyhop

ViperXtreme

Kaizen

Spyhop

Xblade

Cid Highwind

Spyhop

Cid Highwind

Spyhop

aceloop

Xblade

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