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Knowledge is the solution
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Ok, the time you all love has finally come... YES! Its Proto's ranting time <applauses here>

Today we will talk about one of the rights that is denied to people most of the times.

Throughtout human history, different liberty seekers have always fought for different rights, like the right to talk freely, make reunions freely, liberty of religion, the right of education... in sum, we could wrap them all as the right to live, and to live decently.

However, something that has been neglected a lot is the right to die. Many cultures make it seems as if life was some kind of contract, and until you dont meet your hours, you cant resign, or... they could even kill you :p

The point is, that many people who dont want to live any further are forced by any possible method to endure something they no longer want, producting, in a paradox, a life that isnt lived decently.

On the other hand, one could say that our society is so complex that the lose of a member isnt something that wont affect the system significantly... many times many members of this society are dependant upon this person that wants to die, and his lose will produce the greater pain of a greater quantity of members...

But now, I want to hear your opinions on the right to die :)
 

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Coffee Demon
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Bah...suicide is for the weak...Only certain conditions would be fitting the "right to die".

/DW thinks of a certain Metallica video

Yup...only certain conditions
 

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I'm all for freedom. People should have the right to kill themselves, at any time they want. I'm tired of this paternalistic society which insists in taking freedom away from people.
Why I can't buy some barbiturates at the local drugstore and kill myself? Because some self-righteous moralist think that suicide is wrong and therefore that the option should not be available to me?

Anyway, this is a touchy subject. I've been suicidal several times, so I know what I'm talking about. But one thing is for sure, as Nietzsche said "The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets successfully through many a bad night."

Quoting Nietzsche once again: "Prevention of suicide. There is a justice according to which we take a man's life, but no justice according to which we take his death: that is nothing but cruelty."

BTW, DW, which Metallica video is this? The first that comes to my mind is "One"...
 

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Proto said:
many times many members of this society are dependant upon this person that wants to die, and his lose will produce the greater pain of a greater quantity of members...
As in Futurama, there should be a suicide booth on every street corner where you pay a quarter to die by your method of gruesome choice. The depressed would throw themselves into this atomic meat grinder, then their dependents would get depressed and follow, and so on, until all of the lemmings went herding over the cliff. ;)

Death is a doorway that leads from everywhere to nowhere.
The suicide booths would be labelled quite simply: EXIT. :p

(Proto protests: "WTF are you doing?!! That's not the topic I had in mind!") :lol:

In my experience (...), people who want to kill themselves eventually do.
It seems to be mostly a statement (if paradoxical) about reclaiming control of one's life by actively controlling the moment of death.
 

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GALVATRON said:
In my experience (...), people who want to kill themselves eventually do.
The problem is, because our society is so conservative about the subject, the best methods to commit suicide are unavailable (well, in the US you can buy guns easily, but not everyone knows how to use them properly, and gruesome failures happen all the time).
The fact is that over 300,000 people every year attempt suicide in the USA. Only about 30,000/year actually die. Many of the survivors really didn't want to die in the first place (they were only trying to attract atention), though. But many of the others did want to die, and end in a hospital, in a coma, or in a mental institution. Mental institutions in the US (and in other countries too) are full of people who are kept locked and sedated, "to protect them from themselves" - what a joke. Denying a life to someone (keeping them locked in a mental institution) because they want to take their own lives - this is what I call dark humor. But most people seem to call it commonsense.

GALVATRON said:
It seems to be mostly a statement (if paradoxical) about reclaiming control of one's life by actively controlling the moment of death.
Choosing the moment of your death is an empowering decision. So empowering, in fact, that many times you'll give up on suicide. I've seen it happen.
 

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Coffee Demon
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Boltzmann said:
BTW, DW, which Metallica video is this? The first that comes to my mind is "One"...
Indeed...with the clips from "Johnny Got His Gun" (1971) movie. This is probably the only type of scenario where we could understand why someone would want to take their own life. :(
 

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Boltzmann said:
The problem is, because our society is so conservative about the subject, the best methods to commit suicide are unavailable (well, in the US you can buy guns easily, but not everyone knows how to use them properly, and gruesome failures happen all the time).
My GF and I were discussing this subject recently, noticing that many writers and intellectuals -- basically anyone prone to thinking too much -- often end up taking their own lives.
The wimpy people who swallow a bottle of pills, leaving the possibility of being discovered in time and having their stomach pumped, are only weaselling a cry for help. Wrist slashers are equally ambivalent -- slow bleeders.

I don't do things by halves. A sharp pretty blade to the jugular would do the trick, hard and fast: a shower of red, cerebral blood pressure drops to zero, and death is instantaneous. I figure if you're going to die, you might as well mean it, and feel it, since it will be the last thing you ever feel.
(But...... "I wonder who's going to clean up the blood...?")
Wondering this long enough, thinking of the sticky, coagulating pool of your life staining the floorboards, is enough to throw off perfect timing and all concentration. If it can't be perfect, control is lost...

Now you have some idea of what my demented diary entries sound like. :p
 

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Late this afternoon, while tangled in trial and error in some code, I vaguely catched something said on dutch news on the radio when I let my mind slip:

A middle-aged man of foreign nationality tried to kill himself in some train station, carrying a can of gasoline and a lighter. The people on the train station were being evacuated if I heard it right :???:, and a team of people who would try to talk him out of it would be on their way to him.

First of all, this man made it so that people who were on the train station had to abandon their schedule. Second, my thoughts while hearing this were: let him.

Personally, I believe anyone should have the right to die. If people are given rights to live life the way they can and want, then I don't feel it's right to take away one of their possible decisions influencing their lives in a way they can: ending it. I also believe it to be thoroughly anti-social if you do it in a way that attracts a lot of attention and/or uninvolved people get duped by. I can't stand it. That might be my time they're wasting. :eyemove: (The guy on the news was "saved" by the way)





Great parts of society are locked in a perspective where suicidal persons are suffering from nothing but a deviation of standard norms: animal life wants to live on, fearing death, which stops you from jumping into some blazing inferno or between alligator jaws, without having any higher reason. Unless in great physical pain, they believe that these suicidal people do not have the ability to think clearly, so they treat them as any other deranged person. Although I believe there to be much truth in this, I don't feel keeping them in a state they'll hate even more than regular life is really helpful.

People say you can't really judge suicidals if you didn't experience it yourself, and that you can't really be sure if you'll ever suffer the same fate. But if my hunger for self-awareness has thought me anything, it's that I've never quit on anything willingly and never will, that my strong desires have never suffered under heavy emotional stress and most likely never will. I'm quite persistent in anything I do.





Suicide is looked down upon as weak in many communities, while brave in others. Both are true in a way: you quit due to hardships in life; it's the easy way out, yet it isn't easy to put yourself over the fear of dying when actually doing it; it requires quite a deal of willpower to suppress your nature. There's a contradiction here: your will vs your nature. I've always embraced my nature, so it's quite mindboggling to me how one can achieve this stage. It has come to my attention that quite some suicidals back out of their suicidal attempt because they lack the will to overpower their human nature.

Although I have my sig saying Bushido and thus am inspired by the devotion of the original Samurai, I do not agree with all lessons teached by Bushido, nor with all practices of the original Samurai.

I believe Suicide is reserved for those that are mental liabilities to society only, hence another line in my sig:


Suicide:
1. [n] Improving the gene pool.

 

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Coffee Demon
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GALVATRON said:
My GF and I were discussing this subject recently, noticing that many writers and intellectuals -- basically anyone prone to thinking too much -- often end up taking their own lives.
The wimpy people who swallow a bottle of pills, leaving the possibility of being discovered in time and having their stomach pumped, are only weaselling a cry for help. Wrist slashers are equally ambivalent -- slow bleeders.

I don't do things by halves. A sharp pretty blade to the jugular would do the trick, hard and fast: a shower of red, cerebral blood pressure drops to zero, and death is instantaneous. I figure if you're going to die, you might as well mean it, and feel it, since it will be the last thing you ever feel.
(But...... "I wonder who's going to clean up the blood...?")
Wondering this long enough, thinking of the sticky, coagulating pool of your life staining the floorboards, is enough to throw off perfect timing and all concentration. If it can't be perfect, control is lost...

Now you have some idea of what my demented diary entries sound like. :p
We worry about some of you youngsters sometimes oO

klatch
You raise a good point...Here in the US suicide is considered weakness...In other countries it is not, but even then it is done for a goal (as in the case of suicide bombers)..However, we see this as manipulation by a brainwashing group....Ever notice that suicide bombers are always fairly young? They are easy to manipulate aren't they.
In the case of the Japanese, Bushido code, and Kamikaze pilots....well...damn...erm....thats some beliefs aye...Country before self...Emperor before self....thats some deep shiznit..thats some serious re-education
 

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GALVATRON said:
My GF and I were discussing this subject recently, noticing that many writers and intellectuals -- basically anyone prone to thinking too much -- often end up taking their own lives.
Ludwig Boltzmann ( :p ) and Ernst Hemmingway come first to my mind...

GALVATRON said:
The wimpy people who swallow a bottle of pills, leaving the possibility of being discovered in time and having their stomach pumped, are only weaselling a cry for help. Wrist slashers are equally ambivalent -- slow bleeders.
These are weaklings. And there's plenty of them. Mostly teenagers, mostly girls (girls are four times more likely than boys to make this kind of cry for help). The guy described in klatch's story is probably one of those. People who make scenes trying to jump from buildings are mostly in this class too. People who shoot themselves in the members or the belly most likely don't want to do die as well. I've no pity for them, and they can be very annoying.

The problem is the guy who genuinely wants to die and think that a benzodiazepine overdose couple with huge doses of alcohol will do the trick. He'll be in for a nasty surprise when he wakes up in a hospital a week later, recovering from a coma, and then goes to a mental institution and faces the ostracism of his family/friends.

If barbiturates were widely available, such things wouldn't happen.

GALVATRON said:
I don't do things by halves. A sharp pretty blade to the jugular would do the trick, hard and fast: a shower of red, cerebral blood pressure drops to zero, and death is instantaneous. I figure if you're going to die, you might as well mean it, and feel it, since it will be the last thing you ever feel.
This is actually hard to do. Many people are squeamish when it comes to cutting themselves, even suicidal people. Besides, a pretty deep cut is needed if you want to die quickly. A cut that is not deep enough will leave you bleeding slowly (and it might coagulate).
I've read a story about a woman who slashed her own throat. Apparently she had not enough corage, so the cut was shallow. When she saw that she wasn't going to die, she left her house, walked to a bridge and jumped. Fortunately, she died on the fall.
I've also read one about a man who tried to kill himself with a .22 shot to his head. After shooting three times and not even passing out, he tied a rope to the ceilling and hung himself (.22 slugs are so small and underpowered that they take a lot of time to kill you, if they do it at all).

That's why I say that safe suicide methods should be more available. Barbiturates (specially secobarbital and pentobarbital), in a high enough dose are the safest and most peaceful way to die (just go into a deep coma one minute or two after ingestion, and die a few hours later - a bag over the head will cut this time for just a few minutes). Unfortunately, barbiturates are almost impossible to get, unless you've a terminal illness.
 

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Knowledge is the solution
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So... we have more or less agreed that individuals do have the right to take their lives, weaklings or not while they try not to die over a rug or something that will be difficult to clean its ok.

However, we are not merely individuals, we are nidividuals living in a society; that is, there is an order of which we are part, and a certain part we are responsible for. When your part is little, suicide sohlud not be a big deal (of you are single and no one depends upon you then go ahead and try not to break anything else in the process)

However, how about heads of family? How about mothers, prominent people with a great genius, etc. While these people have the undeniable right as INDIVIDUALS to take their life in the way they like, as members of a society they have a great responsability to their fellows.... so they dont have the social right to commit suicide.

So, in this scenario and IYO, which has more weight? Human rights or social responsabilities? :)

Well... IMO its social responsabilities. From the moment you accepted living in a society, and started forming bonds, you gave up some of your liberties in a passive way.... trying to get them back as if nothing is plain irresponsability IMO
 

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If they are that miserable and want to die, they should be able to. What? The police are going to arrest a dead man? :p The only argument I have against this is the people that may love that person would get hurt, and not just emotionally. It does cost money to bury a dead person ... So that's not always pleasant.
 

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Proto said:
So, in this scenario and IYO, which has more weight? Human rights or social responsabilities? :)
Individual rights take precendece in all situations, IMO (that is, unless you're harming other people through your actions - in this case society takes over).

Although you can always argument with the suicidal person in question that her death will be a great loss to society, there's not enough reason to actually restrain the person from commiting suicide, as long as she wants to do so.

I'm always afraid of this kind of argument about society. Because taken to its extreme, it may even justify slavery (and indeed, it already served such purpose).

IMO society exists insofar as it maximizes the individual personal satisfaction (imagine a life completely alone, it would suck big time). Society exists to serve the individual needs, not the other way around. And this is why humans evolved social abilities - to be able to cope with the growing complexities of living in a society was an evolutionary advantage only because living in a society actually benefits the individual.
Of course, if everyone contributes with something to society, there'll be more for everyone - and that's why societies actually work (even though many people don't understand the underlying dynamics).
 

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Boltzmann said:
Individual rights take precendece in all situations, IMO (that is, unless you're harming other people through your actions - in this case society takes over).

Although you can always argument with the suicidal person in question that her death will be a great loss to society, there's not enough reason to actually restrain the person from commiting suicide, as long as she wants to do so.

I'm always afraid of this kind of argument about society. Because taken to its extreme, it may even justify slavery (and indeed, it already served such purpose).

IMO society exists insofar as it maximizes the individual personal satisfaction (imagine a life completely alone, it would suck big time). Society exists to serve the individual needs, not the other way around. And this is why humans evolved social abilities - to be able to cope with the growing complexities of living in a society was an evolutionary advantage only because living in a society actually benefits the individual.
Of course, if everyone contributes with something to society, there'll be more for everyone - and that's why societies actually work (even though many people don't understand the underlying dynamics).
I agree with you Boltzmann, but I think Protoman is referring to mothers/fathers/guardians dying and leaving behind the rest of their families to cope by themselves. Parents are responsible for the lives of their children as well as their own.

Maybe I've been out of the loop, but why would anyone want to commit suicide anyway? Apart from the obvious (and rare) reasons such as not wanting to suffer throught a fatal disease and not being able to forgive yourself for doing something terrible (i.e. killing everyone you have ever loved), I can't see any reason why someone would wake up in the morning and want to die. Sure, we have all had our bad dies, have been depressed, and have even maybe thought about suicide, but I don't see suicide as a solution to the everyday proverbial curve balls that life throws at us.

Suffering is something that no human can avoid. Many people try to find the answer to why we suffer, but I think they are asking the wrong question. The real question should be: what are you going to do about it? Are you going to end your life just so you don't have to deal with it? Or are you going to perservere, grow stronger, gain experience, and possibly learn something? I can't answer this question for anyone else, only myself.

If someone does decide to commit suicide they should do it alone, IMO, as to not disturb others. As it has been said before, people who jump off buildings, cut their wrists, or try to die in public only want attention, and that is their way of crying out for help.
 

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If some sucker wants to kill himself then let him... we have enough weaklings in this world as it is, if they start to correct the error their retard existence represents then let's give them a praise, a cookie and a cheap burial. Family and rest of untied knots they leave behind... well, I don't think they might have been leading a happy life with the (now defunct) idiot anyways, so maybe now they will be able to move on.

With so many people at disadvantage situations trying their best to lead a life, having a bunch of dumbasses who can't value the gift of life is like a living insult...
 

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Knowledge is the solution
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
IMO society exists insofar as it maximizes the individual personal satisfaction (imagine a life completely alone, it would suck big time). Society exists to serve the individual needs, not the other way around. And this is why humans evolved social abilities - to be able to cope with the growing complexities of living in a society was an evolutionary advantage only because living in a society actually benefits the individual.
Of course, if everyone contributes with something to society, there'll be more for everyone - and that's why societies actually work (even though many people don't understand the underlying dynamics).
And I agree with that, however the clue part is in your last point. Society is not a free leisure system, its a system in which you must contribute, and the more you receive from it, the most you are obligued with it. For example, if from this society you received a couple, friends, children, and the such, its within your obligations to pay back for it. If everyone just walked away once they have become bored the whole system would fail, some retribution principle must exist :)
 

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The Captain said:
II can't see any reason why someone would wake up in the morning and want to die. Sure, we have all had our bad dies, have been depressed, and have even maybe thought about suicide, but I don't see suicide as a solution
Often, people who commits suicide are not looking for a solution in that moment. They have looked for before and have not founded it so their solution and reason to commit suicide is "to stop the pain".
There are sometimes in your life when nothing seems like it can be left back when times passes, you know, one of those times when no matter what you do things are never going to be the same and you have lost everything you use to fight for. In these times is when people think about it.
 

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There's always a solution, people who think that death is the only way out are just a bunch of sissies who didn't try hard enough... it's easier to blame it on this world's cruelty than to develop the strength to endure it. My thoughts for them: "good riddance".
 

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Once, a philosophy teacher i had asked me that question, "what do you think about suicide?". My answer then was that i thought people should have the freedom to commit suicide, and i didn't see anything bad on it, but only if it didn't hurt anyone - that including the hurt that would deal to the people wich care for you.

Back then i used to think about comitting suicide myself. It was not about pain i suffered then or had suffered in my life, but about the lack of interest in life itself. I found it plainly boring, no matter what i try to make it more exciting. And future itself didn't look any better.

Then i knew this girl i really cared for. And she had suffered really, really great pains (would you consider great enough losing everyone you cared for in your life?). I realised how stubborn i was, seeing how that girl managed to move on everyday while i wanted death to come by my side for simple boredom. Suicide is just for the weak, sometimes overcoming your pains is hard, but not doing it is like giving up. And i'm no loser to give up.

Then i discovered that the girl had tried to commit suicide about 12 times :p . And the figure kept on raising with time. Obviously, she was crying loud for help / atention / love. That gave me the complete picture. Most of the times, suicide is not only for the weak, but for the selfish. People that don't care about how much will people suffer with their death.

I can understand that in some situations, like being unable to move your body and thus being locked in a bed for the rest of your life, or something like that, people should be allowed to decide when it's time to stop the pain. In most other situations, i can't support it, though i wouldn't oppose to it.

BTW Proto, i was born in society, nobody asked me if i wanted to before ;) .
 

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Proto said:
And I agree with that, however the clue part is in your last point. Society is not a free leisure system, its a system in which you must contribute, and the more you receive from it, the most you are obligued with it. For example, if from this society you received a couple, friends, children, and the such, its within your obligations to pay back for it. If everyone just walked away once they have become bored the whole system would fail, some retribution principle must exist :)
The system will fail only if people take away resources and give nothing back. The ones commiting suicide are not taking anything more from society, they're merely going away (for this reason we don't say that death is the downfall of society).
As I've said before, you can use the person's personal responsibilites as an argument to dissuade someone from commiting suicide, but you can't use it as an excuse to deny people's rights.

Kaiser Sigma said:
There's always a solution, people who think that death is the only way out are just a bunch of sissies who didn't try hard enough... it's easier to blame it on this world's cruelty than to develop the strength to endure it. My thoughts for them: "good riddance".
Some people just don't see live as desirable anymore. It's a matter of opinion.
 
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