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Discussion Starter #1
Create a videogame requires a team of (more or less)
1 - Main Man (normally more marketing than work)
Y - Manager Project
N - Engineers
X - Testes
K - Software House
U - Marketing
W - Designers

Total (more or less) 100 people.

While create an emulator requires a team of
1 - sometimes one guy solve all.
1 to 7 - people.

So, what you think?
I think almost ever time CREATE is more dificult than EMULATES.

"The Microsoft(r) creates X-Box 360, the X-Box360 born with some problems, one of them is "'overhotting'" (the 3RL problem) ..."
The hardware born with problems

"The emulatorX is in beta release, and evoluting"
The software born with solutions (or wishes to evolutes)


But the level of complexity is bigger to who wants to make an emulator, the team must undestand entire project, all stuffs.
search and understand documentation ! (rare and dificult)
otimized codes ! (also dificult)
 

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Definitely emulator is the hardest.

- When you code a game, you know what you WANT. Not any difficult getting there. Hell, there even are middleware softs that simplify it greatly!! 1 creative person with spare time would be enough.

- When you code an emu, you dont even know what you need, and have to keep trying in the dark till something shows. If it works for one game, it has to work for all others, or else it's nothing more of a "port".
There are too many aspects that need to be studied/tested/checked for an emu to be singlehandled. A team literally is a must, unless some emu aspects have been covered before (the GBA saves/battery readwriting procedures being useful examples).

Nobody should need to reinvent the wheel after all.

=============

Just for the record, you seem particularly interested in this whole emu cooperation/creation and all. Did you or any of your techy friends ever considered contributing any useful knowledge or talents. Certain emus certainly could use any enhancements if available.
 

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Hackin 'n Slashin
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I would say emulation is harder...much harder
 

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PCSX2 Coder
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im going to be different :p

it really depends on the system. if its an old 8-bit machine, the games are probably harder to make, but in terms of modern systems, definated emulators
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Definitely emulator is the hardest.
I think it too, but the Refraction gives another perspective.
The most part is harder but in some cases no.

ps: (funny Refraction reminds me Refactoring - Martin Fowler(r) rsrsrr)

- When you code a game, you know what you WANT. Not any difficult getting there. Hell, there even are middleware softs that simplify it greatly!! 1 creative person with spare time would be enough.

- When you code an emu, you dont even know what you need, and have to keep trying in the dark till something shows. If it works for one game, it has to work for all others, or else it's nothing more of a "port".
There are too many aspects that need to be studied/tested/checked for an emu to be singlehandled. A team literally is a must, unless some emu aspects have been covered before (the GBA saves/battery readwriting procedures being useful examples).

Nobody should need to reinvent the wheel after all.
I agree over all. :D
Just for the record, you seem particularly interested in this whole emu cooperation/creation and all. Did you or any of your techy friends ever considered contributing any useful knowledge or talents. Certain emus certainly could use any enhancements if available.
This is the point share lib, knowledge, best performance pratices... and goes on.

emulator are harder
Not so simple question... The perspective view of refraction could change your mind?

I would say emulation is harder...much harder
One more time, today is more harder... but see the opnion of refraction.

im going to be different :p

it really depends on the system. if its an old 8-bit machine, the games are probably harder to make, but in terms of modern systems, definated emulators
Good way to see things (remenber "Change Your Thinking, Today - The Einstein Way!")

Older --> more easy
Newer--> more hard

But and from today to 50 years, (if the earth will exist? :eyemove: ) the PS2 will be the Older Console... and then ?

====================================================
We need to give more value to this important task (make emulators).
Someone can help (like the "man" helps Ubuntu (GNU/Linux)) more this EmuWorld.
 

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Game and emulator are very different in nature, you really can not simply compare them.
You have already mentioned how many different people (different roles) are actually required to create a game, and it is very less likely any one people can have all the skills to create a great game. So that's why we need a team of people to create games.
On the other hand, writing emulator is simply a engineering effort (ok, may not be that simple, but you don't need game design, or art or marketing or any other skills). Given plenty of time, a skilled coder who knows what he is doing can create a good emulator.
Anyway, I agree that from the engineering effort perspective, write emulator is harder than writing some normal games, but definitely can not match the scale of those big title complex games.
 

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Refrac specifically pointed to how there was no convenient SDK kits to simplify game creation.

So yes, it was not easy to make games once upon a time, and even now, because there still arent any (any good ones anyway).

Right now this is different, because games have become so big nowadays, no company could hope to afford not using friendly SDK's, at east because of the time constraints. We dont need no Duke Nukem Forevers.

This was a major factor in the previous 128-bits console race. If you coded for GameCube/XboX but didnt keep PS2's max capabilities in mind when creating, any PS2 port you would make would either be highly unoptimized or worse, stuterry. This added with its lower graphic capabilities of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Game and emulator are very different in nature, you really can not simply compare them.
You have already mentioned how many different people (different roles) are actually required to create a game, and it is very less likely any one people can have all the skills to create a great game. So that's why we need a team of people to create games.
On the other hand, writing emulator is simply a engineering effort (ok, may not be that simple, but you don't need game design, or art or marketing or any other skills). Given plenty of time, a skilled coder who knows what he is doing can create a good emulator.
Anyway, I agree that from the engineering effort perspective, write emulator is harder than writing some normal games, but definitely can not match the scale of those big title complex games.
Yes, totally .

We need that theses Skilled coder share this knowlegde and makes more Skilled coders.
 

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PCSX2 Coder
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Yes, totally .

We need that theses Skilled coder share this knowlegde and makes more Skilled coders.
its not all about sharing knowledge, its mostly about pulling your finger out and doing some research. There are ample documents on the net telling you how emulation works, to a point emulation is the same whatever system, just as you go up in generations these simple emulation loops etc become even more complex, but down at the root its doing the same thing, so these documents cover the basics you need to learn on how emulators work, the rest is down to using your common sense and understanding the original hardware.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Refrac specifically pointed to how there was no convenient SDK kits to simplify game creation.

So yes, it was not easy to make games once upon a time, and even now, because there still arent any (any good ones anyway).

Right now this is different, because games have become so big nowadays, no company could hope to afford not using friendly SDK's, at east because of the time constraints. We dont need no Duke Nukem Forevers.

This was a major factor in the previous 128-bits console race. If you coded for GameCube/XboX but didnt keep PS2's max capabilities in mind when creating, any PS2 port you would make would either be highly unoptimized or worse, stuterry. This added with its lower graphic capabilities of course.
That´s right.

So I was thinking.
SDK also can simplify the emulator creation? (SDK, Framework, lib, papers, best optmized codes...)
Yes, we can join knowlegde (of authors and gurus) and create it?

its not all about sharing knowledge, its mostly about pulling your finger out and doing some research. There are ample documents on the net telling you how emulation works, to a point emulation is the same whatever system, just as you go up in generations these simple emulation loops etc become even more complex, but down at the root its doing the same thing, so these documents cover the basics you need to learn on how emulators work, the rest is down to using your common sense and understanding the original hardware.
Good text. Yes I understand, but what I want is make more developers (real emu developers), showing the basics ... I worry about the future of developers (today everybody wants to program so absctract that is impossible explain to a modern developers how make an emulator...).

Make more people with quality.
 

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In emulation, those "SDK's" would usually be an emulator as a basis. Take VisualBoyAdvance. Anyone
can build on top of it, but any GBA hardware specific issues/advances couldnt be used for a console with different hardware.

No universal emu possible here, though luck. MAME is close enough to one though, but required colossal amounts of dedication and knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
In emulation, those "SDK's" would usually be an emulator as a basis. Take VisualBoyAdvance. Anyone
can build on top of it, but any GBA hardware specific issues/advances couldnt be used for a console with different hardware.

No universal emu possible here, though luck. MAME is close enough to one though, but required colossal amounts of dedication and knowledge.
Allright, but the right word to this is Framework (sample codes, best patterns, how optmize more and more, pappers, best place to search thing... )

I think something could be made to help (not to solve completely) and gives more velocity to development.
 

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No no no, you are wrong. You can not learn how to write a emulator from simply listen from other coder or reading tutorial like "how to write an emulator in 24 days". To actually understand how emulator works and implement it efficiently, you should pick up your computer science text books and study really hard on them, such as computer architecture, compiler, algorithm, operating system, math, and more.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
No no no, you are wrong. You can not learn how to write a emulator from simply listen from other coder or reading tutorial like "how to write an emulator in 24 days". To actually understand how emulator works and implement it efficiently, you should pick up your computer science text books and study really hard on them, such as computer architecture, compiler, algorithm, operating system, math, and more.
I would imagine, learn this is not so simple, but gives the best ways (books as you mean) and this things.

My personal experience is with nes emulator, and It´s been not so simple and helps (como from nesdev.com and the others) come this "dream" true.
Making this emu, I saw how much you work, and this work must be recgonize and valued.

Some way we can help.
 

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Reading this tread made me nostalgic...

12(yes 12!) years ago, i attempted to write an emulator for konami arcade games (i had just learned Basic/clipper and i was moving to c++) and i was VERY lucky to find at my school a Z80 technical manual.

BUT

the actual process of emulating a complete unkown system from scratch is INSANE. you need to dedicate a LOT of time to it if you are working alone, a lot of patience (going: What this adress does ? to your debugger about a gazillion of times until you get some results), lots of coffe, lots (IF avaiable )books on other programming languages and hardware (they can give you clues on how the target software/hardware should behave.

Did i mention that you need TIME?. (well... i did not had the time to do it so i dropped the project)
 

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I'm going to say emulation is harder. Even at a low-level it requries alot of research and understanding of low-level computing and high-level programming. Cheap games can be created easily in most languages fairly easily while cheap emulators are not so easy.
 
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