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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I always said it was him...


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source: Yokohama Times/CA NATIONAL POST

Satanists, apocalypse watchers and heavy metal guitarists may have to adjust their demonic numerology after a recently deciphered ancient biblical text revealed that 666 is not the fabled Number of the Beast after all.

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament, dating to the Third century, gives the more mundane 616 as the mark of the Antichrist.

Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, said the discovery appears to spell the end of 666 as the devil's prime number.

"This is a very nice piece to find," Dr. Aitken said. "Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast."

The tiny fragment of 1,500-year-old papyrus is written in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, and contains a key passage from the Book of Revelation.

Where more conventional versions of the Bible give 666 as the "number of the beast," or the sign of the anti-Christ whose coming is predicted in the book's apocalyptic verses, the older version uses the Greek letters signifying 616.

"This is very early confirmation of that number, earlier than any other text we've found of that passage," Dr. Aitken said. "It's probably about 100 years before any other version."

The fragment was part of a hoard of previously illegible manuscripts discovered in an ancient garbage dump outside the Egyptian city of Oxyrhynchus. Although the papyrus was first excavated in 1895, it was badly discoloured and damaged. Classics scholars at Oxford University were only recently able to read it using new advanced imaging techniques.

Elijah Dann, a professor of philosophy and religion at the University of Toronto, said the new number is unlikely to make a dent in the popularity of 666.

"Otherwise, a lot of sermons would have to be changed and a lot of movies rewritten," he said with a laugh. "There's always someone with an active imagination who can put another interpretation on it.

"It just shows you that when you study something as cryptic and mystic as the Book of Revelation there's an almost unlimited number of interpretations."

The book is thought to have been written by the disciple John and according to the King James Bible, the traditional translation of the passage reads: "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

But Dr. Aitken said that translation was drawn from much later versions of the New Testament than the fragment found in Oxyrhynchus. "When we're talking about the early biblical texts, we're always talking about copies and they are copies made, at best, 150 to 200 years after [the original] was written," she said.

"They can have mistakes in the copying, changes for political or theological reasons ... it's like a detective story piecing it all together."

Dr. Aitken said, however, that scholars now believe the number in question has very little to do the devil. It was actually a complicated numerical riddle in Greek, meant to represent someone's name, she said.

"It's a number puzzle -- the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero."

Revelation was actually a thinly disguised political tract, with the names of those being criticized changed to numbers to protect the authors and early Christians from reprisals. "It's a very political document," Dr. Aitken said. "It's a critique of the politics and society of the Roman empire, but it's written in coded language and riddles."

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ChaosMaster said:
Wow, so satan changed his phone number.
Now they will make a remake of the omen.
:lol: :lol: Yeap I guess so but still this is so....hmmm...yeah... oO xD
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Although this is really nothing new. (It is barely news at all to Biblical scholars).

While the major ancient texts and fragments (P47, Alef, A, P, 046, 050, also the Vulgate, Syriac, Coptic, Aramaic) all have 666, 616 is not known. Specifically C, some mss known to Irenaeus (although he mentions all the best quality texts have 666) and Tyconius. According to Tischendorf's 8th edition of the Greek Bible he mentions that 616 was also present in two minuscule fragments that are now lost. Basically this is not a surprise find and it is an issue of textual criticism (the science of investigating the origins of a text and variant readings).
Some of the texts that contain 666 are very old; in this regards the news bite is more sensationalism. Age is only one factor in determining the quality of a variant reading; it alone does not determine whether or not a variant more closely resembles the original autograph.
The variant is unexciting in a historical perspective. If the beast was Nero Ceaser, as is believed by some historical scholars, then the variants actually are not antagonistic but agreeable. The Greek form of Nero's name (NERON CAESAR) in Hebrew equals 666; while the Latin form of Nero's name (NERO CAESAR, note the lack of an N) equals 616 in Hebrew. The significance of Hebrew is twofold: First is that the disciples were Jewish and therefore would be familiar with Hebrew, Second is that gematria was increasingly popular toward the end of the 1st century. The identification of the letters of the Hebrew a
If you read the Apocalypse of St. John as a prophecy of the end days, the Antichrist is that tyrant who will rise up in opposition to Christ and his followers, exalting himself as divine. The impact of the title is but slightly diminished by an allegorical interpretation of Revelations, seeing it as an account of the trials that a Christian will face

Ever since the Middle Ages, Christians have tried identifying one or another notable personage as the Antichrist. Crusades were preached against the Muslim occupiers of Jerusalem; their prophet, Mohammed, was identified as the Antichrist. Luther thought the Pope was the Antichrist. (The Pope said it was Luther.)

These days’ televangelists draw followers (and dollars) by their warnings of the coming of this King of All Worldly Evil. (Some believe that conservative televangelists themselves represent the Antichrist, allegorically speaking.)

Other famous people who have been identified with the Beast of Revelations include Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Alaistair Crowley (who was eager to grab the title for himself as a means of self-promotion), Henry Kissinger, and Ronald Wilson Reagan (because he has three names of six letters each -- 666 the newer "number of the Beast".)

Watchers for the Antichrist in the late 20th century have become more vigilant as general fears of nuclear holocaust intensify. some say Americans, in particular, are especially prone to this new Millernarianism (named for the prophet of a 19th Century Doomsday); they have sought the face of the Beast in "godless Communists" and Middle Eastern Dictators, forgetting that our worlds scientists remain at the forefront of life snuffing nuclear weapons research and that politicians still perpetuate the nuclear arms race. (even after the end of the Cold War)

Los Angeles-based evangelist Hal Lindsay has made a tidy sum for himself by ticking off events that he thinks fulfil prophecy, never mentioning in subsequent bestsellers the times his predictions have failed to materialize. Lindsay and those who follow him forget the admonition of Christ found in Luke and Matthew that says "the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." [See Luke 12:40 and Matthew 24:43].
The prophecy/allegory racket collapses when one views Revelations as apocalyptic literature, that is an account of recent events disguised as visions of the future. Most scholars agree that the Antichrist is none other than the Emperor Nero, who did slaughter Christians and declare himself as a god above all other gods. Roman history, (however, does not sell books in the 21st century.)
 

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What, Iron Maiden will have to change the lyrics of one of their best songs? :???:



BTW, it's good to see that the scholars are already admitting that Revelations is just a disguised political attack. Most of the bible fits this category.
 

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Heheehe.

So it was a reference to Nero, and has nothing to do with the devil at all. Why am I not surprised?
 

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Hotels have something to do as well. There are certain ones that don't have a room number 13 and it wouldn't surprise me if they left 666 out if they have one. So with 616 being the new number.... :p

But whatever they will prove, I wonder if it will make any difference, it's just a symbol and somehow I don't think everyone will give up that symbol for a new number. If so, I still don't care hehe.
 

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read about it a few days ago. pretty interesting. i once did a math paper about that number. got a lot of mathematical reffrences to 666. there is even a site that only revolves around that. i am pretty sertain they will close down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Boltzmann said:
BTW, it's good to see that the scholars are already admitting that Revelations is just a disguised political attack. Most of the bible fits this category.
Have you ever read Dante's Inferno? Or John Milton’s Paradise Lost? Considered by many to be the some of the greatest literary works ever. (but its sometimes a problem finding good competent translations of them)

Something I've always wondered about was the idea of the “mark of the beast”. The tattoo, microchip, and branding of the symbol of the evil one upon a person or thing. I would like to hear some thoughts on this from other users.

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Revelation 13:16-18
 

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man this is bull****
about numbers and all.
According to my teachings, satan has no number or any thing. Don't really know from where it was invented either.
All I know is that for certain the antichrist will come, with the mark "Pagan" on his forehead, that can be read by all, learned people and illetrate, he will have 2 rivers, one of fire and the other of clear water. Only the followers will see the truth and the word on the forehead, and that all they see is but a lie.
Then christ will come, kill him, and will guide the people to the true religion.
NB: The antichrist is not the son of satan, and The prophet muhammad was never seen as one by the crusaders, but the crusades occured due to greed of the foriegners in the middle east. no offence to anyone
 

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im interested in your interpretation. can u go into more detail on the pagan mark and the two rivers? also this part : "Only the followers will see the truth and the word on the forehead, and that all they see is but a lie."

thanks
 

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I think it's all a bunch of crap. A number is a number no matter how you put it. The so called devil's chip, the Pentium III 667Mhz is actually 665Mhz. You multiply 133x5 and you get 665, not 666.:p Some motherboards report the speed incorrectly.
 

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I've never heard of the devil's chip, can you talk more about it? Was it banned by someone/place or something like that? And truly, a P3 667mhz wouldn't really be 666 anyways, it's 666,000,000; only a 666hertz chip would've been the "true" devil's chip. Just an observation.
 

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Katsuya said:
Have you ever read Dante's Inferno? Or John Milton’s Paradise Lost? Considered by many to be the some of the greats literary works ever. (but its sometimes a problem finding good competent translations of them)
I've read both. They're truly great literary works (though not the greatest, IMHO). The problem is that I don't like poetry that much, and Dante's and Milton's language is very thick (since they were written so long ago). Reading from translations also don't help a lot.

ChaosMasterAll said:
I know is that for certain the antichrist will come, with the mark "Pagan" on his forehead, that can be read by all, learned people and illetrate, he will have 2 rivers, one of fire and the other of clear water. Only the followers will see the truth and the word on the forehead, and that all they see is but a lie.
Come on, you really believe this stuff?

/me hides his sarcastical comment before he is accused of not respecting spurious beliefs

BTW, I know for certain that there's no antichrist, and no guy with word on his forehead. We only have our regular human monsters; those you can see everyday in the news.
 

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stilz said:
I've never heard of the devil's chip, can you talk more about it? Was it banned by someone/place or something like that? And truly, a P3 667mhz wouldn't really be 666 anyways, it's 666,000,000; only a 666hertz chip would've been the "true" devil's chip. Just an observation.
Nah, that's still all a bunch of bullcrap. Although I'm pretty sure many people have been offended by it. 6 is just a number people!! I can't believe people actually believe a number is evil..
 

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Esturk said:
Nah, that's still all a bunch of bullcrap. Although I'm pretty sure many people have been offended by it. 6 is just a number people!! I can't believe people actually believe a number is evil..
People are pretty irrational. You can see examples in this very thread.

And have you ever heard about Triskaidekaphobia ? American hotels even renumber the 13th floor as 14th because of this stupid superstition.
 

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Boltzmann said:
People are pretty irrational. You can see examples in this very thread.

And have you ever heard about Triskaidekaphobia ? American hotels even renumber the 13th floor as 14th because of this stupid superstition.
Yeah. I once lived in an apartment tower with "15" floors. I supposedly lived on the 15th floor, even though there was no 13th floor. Which would mean that I actually lived on the 14th floor. It's rediculous.

That's pretty cool Boltz. I never knew there was so much to this whole thing.
 

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stilz said:
I've never heard of the devil's chip, can you talk more about it? Was it banned by someone/place or something like that? And truly, a P3 667mhz wouldn't really be 666 anyways, it's 666,000,000; only a 666hertz chip would've been the "true" devil's chip. Just an observation.
actuaily the FSB isn't exactly 133MHz it's more like 133.3333333333333MHz...... so it's 666.666666666666666666666666MHz not 665MHz or 667mhz
 
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