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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Frank Forman, a.k.a. Premise Checker, from the WTA-Talk mail list sent this very interesting e-mail. I found it to be very important, and thought to share it with you guys.

The politics of this important issue have shaded the overwhelming importance of doing what each and everyone of us feel is right for ourselves. That is a very personal, family decision. In that spirit a friend sent to me a model Living Will that he has drafted for himself.
You may find it to contain some worthwhile language.

LIVING WILL

I, _________________________ (fill in the blank), being of sound mind and
body, do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means or inartificial means. Under no circumstances should my fate be put in the hands of dickhead politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it, particularly those claiming to be doctors.

If a reasonable amount of time passes and I fail to sit up and ask for a good Pinot or I fail to find a giggle, it should be presumed that I won't do so ever again. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my spouse and children (those I have loved forever) and attending humans to pull the plug, reel in the tubes and send me to visit with Popes and other celebrities.

Under no circumstances shall any elected official (of anything) enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permanent coma and who nonetheless may be in need of nourishment... particularly those struggling to find a job ... to find security ... to find the good fortune that so many of us enjoy. Why don't they understand ... WE ARE ALL HERE BECAUSE OF GENES, GEOGRAPHY, GOOD LUCK & AND FEW GRADUATIONS. Why don't we admit it? Why don't we focus on helping others. Let's stop stepping on the rights of ordinary humans.

Under no circumstances shall any politicians butt into my case. I don't care how many votes they're trying to scrounge for their run for whatever; it is my wish that they play politics with someone else's life and leave me alone to rest with peace... with love... with smiles... with my wishes.
 

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The ChinaDude!!!
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Agreed.

Btw, these writings are almost terrorism :D
Yes, i AM a terrorist :evil:
 

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The Hunter
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I agree as well :)

People should be free to choose, wether or not they use it is their own choice, but having the option is a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I specially like this part: "Under no circumstances shall any elected official (of anything) enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permanent coma and who nonetheless may be in need of nourishment..."
 

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The ChinaDude!!!
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Cid Highwind said:
I agree as well :)
You don't happen to be from the netherlands right? :lol:
 

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<font color="#990000"><b>Lurking</b></font>
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How do you know that giving your life up when the time has not come will make you rest in peace ?

Yours,
-Elly
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
エッリー said:
How do you know that giving your life up when the time has not come will make you rest in peace ?
Maybe because you think that you've the right to choose when the time has come, instead of letting nature make the choice for you.

It's a matter of freedom, and taking your life in your hands.

Please not that it should be a matter of choice. For those who think that nature should be left to run it's course, they should have the option of staying indefinitely on coma.

Although at some point people stop being eligible to medical insurance, and the family should pay for the treatment out of it's own pockets if they want to keep an irrecoverable patient hooked up to life support.
 

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<font color="#990000"><b>Lurking</b></font>
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Boltzmann said:
Maybe because you think that you've the right to choose when the time has come, instead of letting nature make the choice.
I am not speaking about choice ( which you seem so touchy about ). I am talking about you when you "choose" to end up your life ( can we say "prematually" ?). How do you know that you will be resting in peace after that choice ?

You can't answer this question, nor can anyone since we haven't experienced death. So on what basis is that guy describing his state as "resting in peace" when he doesn't know what will happen ?

Yours,
-Elly
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
エッリー said:
I am not speaking about choice ( which you seem so touchy about ). I am talking about you when you "choose" to end up your life ( can we say "prematually" ?). How do you know that you will be resting in peace after that choice ?
What if you don't believe that's anything after life? Then this concern is completely ungrounded.

For me, and all other thousands of atheists, materialists, this life is the real deal, and your only chance. There's no concern about "resting" afterwards, since there's no "afterwards" for the person in question (the person ceases to exist as soon as brain death takes place; you are your brain).

The author use of the expression "rest in peace" is more of a poetic license. Don't take it literally.
 

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~ Lord of Darkness ~
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エッリー said:
How do you know that giving your life up when the time has not come will make you rest in peace ?
You don't. Basically it is an act of fear for what you don't know. "If I don't wake up in <insert time period in here> then...". It doesn't mean that the person will never ever wake up (and vice-versa), it just means that he/she isn't willing to endure a comma with the expectation that perhaps he/she may or may not recover someday. It's a reckless move but in all truth it's their choice. I would like to believe we are free, if they think they can not endure such a situation or if they don't want to be a liability or constant pain to their loved beings then it's their choice.

One thing is not wanting to live anymore because you are a weakling and another is because you are placed on a situation where you can't do anything to improve the situation... they are somehow dead in life so I don't particularly see how this could be wrong. I do not like the overly petulant tone of Forman talking about politicians and the rest as if they were below him but I do reckon that under such circumstances it's his choice whether he wants to remain like a vegetal forever or not.
 

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Boltzmann said:
What if you don't believe that's anything after life? Then this concern is completely ungrounded.

For me, and all other thousands of atheists, materialists, this life is the real deal, and your only chance. There's no concern about "resting" afterwards, since there's no "afterwards" for the person in question (the person ceases to exist as soon as brain death takes place; you are your brain).

The author use of the expression "rest in peace" is more of a poetic license. Don't take it literally.
And why are you assuming that there is an after life? I wasn't hinting at that at all. I was just wondering why the hell do people pre-assume many things about death whether they are atheists , theists , or whats not when they don't know.

ie :
1. This man was a great person who did this and that...yadda yadda yadda. He shall now rest in heaven
( And why not hell? How do you know...? -_- )
2. He had the choice to end his own life ! Now he will face death a smile and rest in peace for eternity...yadda yadda yadda
( Again, how the feck do you know...? -_- )

Kaiser Sigma said:
One thing is not wanting to live anymore because you are a weakling and another is because you are placed on a situation where you can't do anything to improve the situation... they are somehow dead in life so I don't particularly see how this could be wrong. I do not like the overly petulant tone of Forman talking about politicians and the rest as if they were below him but I do reckon that under such circumstances it's his choice whether he wants to remain like a vegetal forever or not.
I am not gonna argue about the freedom of choice. I find the concept of choosing between life and death to be ridiculous, but part of me sometimes doesn't care. Hopeless cases are hopeless, even if you restrain them , they want to end their miserable excuse of a life.......meh. They're like what you said earlier on,...living dead.

Yours,
-Elly
 

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~ Lord of Darkness ~
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エッリー said:
I am not gonna argue about the freedom of choice. I find the concept of choosing between life and death to be ridiculous, but part of me sometimes doesn't care. Hopeless cases are hopeless, even if you restrain them , they want to end their miserable excuse of a life.......meh. They're like what you said earlier on,...living dead.
Careful, I'm not talking about the low quality humans who want to commit suicide just because life is too much for them. Just talking about those who go into a state of uncertainty for the rest of their lives... suicide ppl can do something about their lives but these ppl can't. It really is something beyond them...
 

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The ChinaDude!!!
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As someone who has thought about suicide, i am always shocked about how people think about it, about their ignorance and about their dumb arrogance. Those people deserve a painfull death over and over again. Maybe then they'll understand what they wish upon others.

Anyways, I have already faced death a couple of times, and i never even flinched, because of my belief that saved me from suicide, it also made me insensitive to death. I don't care anymore if i live or die. I just am. The only thing that matters to me now is how i am going to fill the remaining time.
 

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Eface said:
As someone who has thought about suicide, i am always shocked about how people think about it, about their ignorance and about their dumb arrogance.
As someone who has thought about suicide I am entitled to my ignorance and dumb arrogance .

Eface said:
Those people deserve a painfull death over and over again. Maybe then they'll understand what they wish upon others.
Unless you have concrete evidence that you are a power on the Universe whose purpose is order you are a nobody to tell who deserves what and not qualified to do so anymore than I am.
 

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Why are we arguing over the petty details? The bottom line is that having a living will is a good thing, regardless if you want to be left on life support or not. That way, no one on the outside can determine your fate for you. Can't we all agree on this point?
 

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The ChinaDude!!!
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Kaiser Sigma said:
As someone who has thought about suicide I am entitled to my ignorance and dumb arrogance .
Unless you have concrete evidence that you are a power on the Universe whose purpose is order you are a nobody to tell who deserves what and not qualified to do so anymore than I am.
Kaiser's ego didn't quite match mine. Guess his ego was small after all :p j/k

[rant mode]
Of course, nobody is to tell who deserves what and what not. But people who think too lightly of suicide should live 24 hours with the feelings asiociated with it. If they didn't learn from it, they can have the next 24, until they learn. I think there will be enough people who would live in that horror for the rest of their lives.

Maybe i got angry because i always hate it when people think lightly of this subject. And of course, the only way to get over suicide is by getting stronger. But those who have been in that state for too long, can lose their strength to do so.

And for the people who think it's a pathetic way to draw attention: that is why you have to ignore them, right? :angry:

[/rant mode]
Of course, i never intended to step someone on his or her toes. Feel free to say so if i did.

@kaiser, that was already obvious to me. You have similar eyes remember ;) But i wasn't referring to you. Sorry i offended you. Besides being dumb and arrogant can be cool too :cool:

The Captain said:
Can't we all agree on this point?
Yeah, but like teh Kaiser said, we want to argue :evil:
 

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Eface said:
Kaiser's ego didn't quite match mine. Guess his ego was small after all :p j/k
Actually it is not a joke. The only reason why I thought of death was because I was a sore loser and a weakling who couldn't live with all the crap going on. My ego wasn't smaller than yours, I didn't have any to start with. Fortunately, I proved to be strong enough to evolve and overcome my depressive barriers.
My ego is the testament of my will. So yes, I think lightly of suicide because it is something unimportant... just a way of showing you are not capable of dealing with life. There is no value or honor in that.
 

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The ChinaDude!!!
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I know it's not a joke. My reason for suicidal thoughts were that i felt that i had no right to exist in the first place. First time i could handle it by complete killing my emotions. Yes it can be done. When they got loose again i couldn't shut them out again. I learned another way of dealing with it. Now i have fully grown over it. Guess i did have a right to exist after all.

I guess everybody who gets over suicidal thoughts and/or tendencies will gain something in the end. Something normal people will never find. I'm glad i found that thing for me. And what kaiser found, well, that's obvious. :thumb:
 

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Kaiser Sigma said:
Careful, I'm not talking about the low quality humans who want to commit suicide just because life is too much for them.
bold mine
How very...arrogant...of you.

Careful Boltzmann. This reeks of Terri Schiavo, and you probably don't want another excuse to run away.
 
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