[Ryos]

Sweet. Now I just need Vampire Hunting 101 and I can live my dream of being a Belmont. I'm not sure if you've heard about this yet, but it's a real class being taught in the Vatican. And...um...according to the O'Reilly Factor episode I heard it from two days ago, exorcism is alive and well as a special job. It's a strange and mysterious world.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/17/world/main674660.shtml

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Does it surprise you? "Exorcist" priests are quite common in South America... people even go to Church and put on a big show where the chubby priest touches their heads and everyone think he's actually doing something mystical... some of them even faint...

 

[Boltzmann]

I'm amazed that in the 21st century people still believe in demonic possession. What Kaiser Sigma said is true. Many christian churches in south america regularly perform exorcisms upon it's "subjects".

In my country, some of them even have something called "Exorcism's Friday". Every Friday at least one exorcism is performed.

I’ve seen Christian magazines claiming that the Devil is making a war against Christians, and that exorcism is our most powerful weapon (no kidding, I saw it less than a year ago in a newspaper stand).

Besides, I hate the Vatican. Especially after the Pope recently said that death and suffering are what defines us as human beings. I hope he suffers a lot before he dies, so that he can learn what it means to be a human.

 

[Quatro]

> Among the widely accepted signs of possession by the devil are speaking in unknown tongues and demonstrating physical force beyond one's natural capacity.

well if they say it like they, then would it mean that magicians are devil worshippers...?

 

[Boltzmann]

Every one who appears to perform magical feat (and is not a professional magician, that is) is either a fraud or deluded.

If any of them were the real thing, they'd collect 1 million dolars from James Randi's challenge...

 

[I-Chan]

Besides, I hate the Vatican. Especially after the Pope recently said that death and suffering are what defines us as human beings. I hope he suffers a lot before he dies, so that he can learn what it means to be a human.

What i find funnier in his current situation is that, after centuries of trying to put science down, now they are using the best of it to keep the pope alive. Talk about irony...

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Ok... I see where this is going... let's not turn this into another "ZOMG science pwnz relig0n d00dz!!11!!eleveneleven!!1!!1"...

 

[Quatro]

> Every one who appears to perform magical feat (and is not a professional magician, that is) is either a fraud or deluded.

how about the likes of David Blaine...?

 

[Boltzmann]

What i find funnier in his current situation is that, after centuries of trying to put science down, now they are using the best of it to keep the pope alive. Talk about irony...

Indeed. They should just pray for him, and see if prayer can keep the Pope alive. But every rational man already knows what the answer is

how about the likes of David Blaine...?

He's a professional magician. He performs tricks, nothing more

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Indeed. They should just pray for him, and see if prayer can keep the Pope alive. But every rational man already knows what the answer is

Let's just hope that every rational man can be a little more objective and spare the world of their anti-religious thoughts...

 

[_E_]

Besides, I hate the Vatican. Especially after the Pope recently said that death and suffering are what defines us as human beings. I hope he suffers a lot before he dies, so that he can learn what it means to be a human.

You don't hate the Vatican, you hate everything related to religon whether it's good or bad.

As concerning exorcism, I think most cases related to it are stupid. I blame that on the lack of education and people's naivity. The only interesting cases of exorcism which I found were the jinn-releasing-from-human exorcism performed by some cleriks in the middle east. However those cases were very rare and there many times when individuals get wrongly killed by their parents/relatives because they think that an evil spirit took over their beloved's body ( yeah right, as if killing him will help . This also happens on most parts of the world too. )

Yours,
-Elly

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

You don't hate the Vatican, you hate everything related to religon whether it's good or bad.

/me grabs the popcorn

Regardless... so true...

 

[Dark Watcher]

We care not for the Pope, his position, or the Vatican. Not to knock Catholics, but we never quite understood how the wealth and power of the Vatican is reflected by the teachings of humbleness and modesty contained in the Bible...

As men however...We hope he finds wellness and peace

And for Excorcists...We are sure that a few put on quite a show, but we do not knock what cannot be explained spiritually (There are things that can occur that even Boltz cannot find an answer for). Needless to say we hope we never have the need for such ..er...services

 

[Boltzmann]

Let's just hope that every rational man can be a little more objective and spare the world of their anti-religious thoughts...

Well, even the Vatican knows the answer, or else they wouldn't put the Pope on life support. At least they're wise enough not to trust prayers for anything concrete.

Anyway, it's not about my "anti-religious thoughts". Of all the scientific studies properly conducted, none found any healing effect for prayer. But maybe I'm just full of "anti-religious thoughts"

You don't hate the Vatican, you hate everything related to religon whether it's good or bad.

Not everything. I like most Buddhist teachings and the virtues it respects, despite them being religious.

I may have a strong opinion against religion (and mysticism in general; everything that is metaphysical, in fact), but that’s because I’ve adopted a ‘take-no-prisoners’ attitude towards it. I won’t accept false beliefs, or reason under false premises, not even for a second.

And for Excorcists...We are sure that a few put on quite a show, but we do not knock what cannot be explained spiritually (There are things that can occur that even Boltz cannot find an answer for). Needless to say we hope we never have the need for such ..er...services

Just because you cannot find an answer to something doesn't mean that it has a supernatural "explanation". In fact, this would be a simple case of arrogance (“oh, I don’t know what it is, so supernatural forces must be behind it”).

History has taught that there’s always an answer – but we are not always smart enough to find it (sometimes it took centuries before someone could explain certain features of our world).

It’s just like when primitive people saw lightning and heard the thunder, couldn’t think of an explanation for it and therefore assumed a supernatural “explanation” (e.g. a thunder god). Now we all know that lightning and thunder are all a result of static electricity and ionized air, and no one needs to postulate thunder gods anymore.

The same goes for those demonic possession cases. Even in the cases were a prosaic explanation is not immediately obvious, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t one – it just means that you’re not clever enough to find it. To claim otherwise is go against history and all evidence gathered thus far.

And I’m saying “you” in the general sense. It would apply to me in the cases where “not even Botz can find an answer for”. If I cannot find an answer for something, it doesn’t mean that there’s no answer – it just means that I’m not smart enough to figure it out. Take quantum gravity, for instance. I don’t know the answer to this conundrum, but this is not because there’s no answer – it’s because I’m not smart enough to find it

EDIT: As for the Pope, I’ve never respected him in the first place. Religious leaders are always suspicious for me. But I’ve lost any respect I had for his as a human being the moment he said that death and suffering are good for us. Anyone who advocates death and suffering loses any respect in my eyes. There’s a moral imperative for us to stop all this involuntary death and suffering, and I don’t care if someone else’s god seems to think otherwise.

 

[I-Chan]

Ok... I see where this is going... let's not turn this into another "ZOMG science pwnz relig0n d00dz!!11!!eleveneleven!!1!!1"...

It was more of a "ZOMG science pwnz v4t1can d00dz!!11!!eleveneleven!!1!!1". I respect religious people, as long as they keep their religion to themselves. The catholic church not only tries to expand their influence all over the world using both fair and unfair techniques (i.e. with the last gov in spain, wich was procatholic, they tried to make the religion subject a must for all students, when it's never been in the last 30 years), but spreads hate towards some groups (homosexual and bisexual people, to name the easiest ones), and still tries to oppose to the development of science (steem cell research comes to mind), while taking advantage of it to take care of their leader. I could dive deeper into this, but boltz has already summarized my thoughts on this.

However those cases were very rare and there many times when individuals get wrongly killed by their parents/relatives because they think that an evil spirit took over their beloved's body ( yeah right, as if killing him will help . This also happens on most parts of the world too. )

And still the church insists on teaching exorcism, and spread word of fear to keep followers on regions were cultural level make it possible to succeed wich such message. Sorry, i can't respect a church whose main purpose is to draw a line and spread hate towards every person outside of the line. Specially, when the moral rules they spread apply to everyone but them.

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Needless to say we hope we never have the need for such ..er...services

But... I thought we were the reason why such services were required... :evil:

It was more of a "ZOMG science pwnz v4t1can d00dz!!11!!eleveneleven!!1!!1". I respect religious people, as long as they keep their religion to themselves. (...)

Yes and it's the same boring excuse you (undertand you and the rest of the anti-religious gang) give every single time. Yes religious people are bad they try to impose their religion, etc, etc.
Now... do you see any member in here fitting that image? Any member that tries relentlessly to convert you to catholicism?

Since the archetype of zealous catholic doesn't exist on this place I see no need for the continuous "OMG they are t3h evil. They won't stop bothering me". You (again, understand the you on a wider sense, I am not targetting this at you alone) don't respect religious people because no one in here harrass you with their religion. Therefore, on a symbiotic relationship where respect exists you would spare us all of the overrated argument of "they don't respect me boohoo" since no one in here fits that description. In real life you are surrounded by religious nimrods? Then be my guest and go flame them, insult their beliefs and all the clichés. Since in here that isn't the case then respect religious people as much as they respect you and quit the annoying "religion sux" arguments. We have like a dozen of threads about it, if you hate the subject so much then why do you keep bringing it up?

I could dive deeper into this, but boltz has already summarized my thoughts on this

Yes and he is as oblivious as you are when it comes to religion... you simply don't get it that as long as no religion dumbass tries to mess with you in here there is no place for you to freely attack religion. At least not as long as you claim to be the ones who are right.

 

[Grv]

Oblivious, are they? Them? Why don't you point out the first quote in this thread that was in any way hinting towards people thinking "religion is teh suck"? It's not theirs, Kaiser. Vatican !== All of Religion.

 

[Kaiser Sigma]

Why don't you point out the first quote in this thread that was in any way hinting towards people thinking "religion is teh suck"?

Here...

What i find funnier in his current situation is that, after centuries of trying to put science down, now they are using the best of it to keep the pope alive. Talk about irony...

Whether that was meant as a stingy comment or not it is still a negative comment. Note that I don't care about the vatican... it just that most people like to mess with the catholics just because of some lame experiences in real life.

 

[I-Chan]

Yes and it's the same boring excuse you (undertand you and the rest of the anti-religious gang) give every single time. Yes religious people are bad they try to impose their religion, etc, etc.
Now... do you see any member in here fitting that image? Any member that tries relentlessly to convert you to catholicism?

Please quote the part where i pointed this to any member of the forums. IIRC, and you can read my previous posts if you don't, i talked about the catholic church, not even the catholic religion. Again, i respect catholic people, and some of my best friends are catholic. I respect them and their beliefs, but not the organization that leads the cult. My reasons have been already posted. I just made a comment who was fitting to something that had been posted. Wasn't directed to anyone. If you think it attacks you personally, then we can debate it of course, that's what forums are for, and open discussion is the appropiate are for a subject such as this. Anyway, as you pointed, there are threads for this already, and if i didn't use them is because, as you said, it's been argued many times already, and you know as well as me that there's no point in doing so. I'll keep my thoughts and you'll keep yours, as everyone else. And i'm ok with that, i do respect your freedom on this regard. In the same way, i expect you to respect mine to express my opinion while i abide to the given forum rules. If you think this subject is too sensible for you, you can simply refrain from posting, of course.

Since the archetype of zealous catholic doesn't exist on this place I see no need for the continuous "OMG they are t3h evil. They won't stop bothering me". You (again, understand the you on a wider sense, I am not targetting this at you alone) don't respect religious people because no one in here harrass you with their religion. Therefore, on a symbiotic relationship where respect exists you would spare us all of the overrated argument of "they don't respect me boohoo" since no one in here fits that description. In real life you are surrounded by religious nimrods? Then be my guest and go flame them, insult their beliefs and all the clichés. Since in here that isn't the case then respect religious people as much as they respect you and quit the annoying "religion sux" arguments. We have like a dozen of threads about it, if you hate the subject so much then why do you keep bringing it up?

I don't hate the subject, only the organization . It's true that i've had to deal with zealots on this regard, but it only bothered me when i was a child. Nowadays it only brings a smile to my face. Please, show me where i disrespected you or any catholic person. I merely commented about something that is news today? Did i baselessly bash the church at any point? Did i simply insult without putting a reason? If you think i'm mistaken, you are as free to prove me wrong as i am to post as long as i stick to the rules.

Yes and he is as oblivious as you are when it comes to religion... you simply don't get it that as long as no religion dumbass tries to mess with you in here there is no place for you to freely attack religion. At least not as long as you claim to be the ones who are right.

I don't claim to be right. I have my opinion as you have yours, and if i do, it's because it's the one that appeals more to my way of thinking. I know i can be wrong, but as long as i'm not proven so, i'll be consequent with it. And where did i freely attack religion? I posted a fact (the pope is being treated with medical science, wich wouldn't exist if it was for them, read history books and you'll see how i'm right about this), and an opinion (i think it's ironic). Is that a free attack? Then i stated again facts about religion. Or haven't you heard catholic church representatives bashing homosexual people, for example? That is a free attack. Then i simply stated that i don't respect them for those reasons, wich i think i'm free to do. I don't know how having an opinion and reasoning it can be a free attack, as i didn't call names anywhere.

 

[Dark Watcher]

Since the archetype of zealous catholic doesn't exist on this place I see no need for the continuous "OMG they are t3h evil. They won't stop bothering me". You (again, understand the you on a wider sense, I am not targetting this at you alone) don't respect religious people because no one in here harrass you with their religion. Therefore, on a symbiotic relationship where respect exists you would spare us all of the overrated argument of "they don't respect me boohoo" since no one in here fits that description. In real life you are surrounded by religious nimrods? Then be my guest and go flame them, insult their beliefs and all the clichés. Since in here that isn't the case then respect religious people as much as they respect you and quit the annoying "religion sux" arguments. We have like a dozen of threads about it, if you hate the subject so much then why do you keep bringing it up?

Yes and he is as oblivious as you are when it comes to religion... you simply don't get it that as long as no religion dumbass tries to mess with you in here there is no place for you to freely attack religion. At least not as long as you claim to be the ones who are right.

:thumb: WOW! :bow:
Now there is a response that should have laid to rest all previous religious posts / arguments.

We won't push our beliefs (we would say religion, but we hate that word) on "you" (The members), and so we would appreciate if "you" (the members) don't push your anti-religious agenda on us.

We could be wrong, but we cannot recall a post where someone was pushing religion. In most cases the issue comes up when someone feels the need to either defend it or bash it. So perhaps the best bet is to avoid bashing (That is unless the post turns into an overzealous preacher fest)

So anyways..back to the original post... Exorcism...
It may very well be that those considered "possessed" may very well have chemical / mental unbalances (for you Boltz ). In the past, a child with ADHD or ADD could have been mistaken for a devil child . Do we believe in demon possession? Well...DW rules out nothing. Indeed such things like lightning were considered spiritual phenomenon in the past, and science managed to clear that up. So our view is to keep considering some things as spiritual phenomenon till science catches up :thumb: . So thumbs up to those who can exorcise demons!