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Will you vote for the EU-constitution?

  • I love that constitution - I vote for it! :)

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • That thing is complete rubbish - I vote against it! :(

    Votes: 8 80.0%

  • Total voters
    10
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Discussion Starter #1
First of all, read Here, study it well. This is what the upcoming constitution of the European Union is supposed to look like.

You might have read it in the news: France and the Netherlands both decided to let their people decide whether they wanted that constitution or not. In both countries the people voted against this - SHOCK! Big crisis! Europe's gonna crumble apart!

What I would like to know is how the NGEmu members have or would have voted if they were given that opportunity. Note that of course everybody can vote here, even if you are not 18 of age or coming from somewhere else. And please also tell the world why you did.

I'll stay quiet for awhile.

Of course the poll will be free, equal and secret. Nobody (except for some voyeur mod, maybe :D) will see what you voted, if you don't want to.
 

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The Hunter
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There's no need to be ashamed of your opinion, just as long as you can explain why you chose it.
I'm going to vote no for the reasons I posted in the topic which I created some time ago.

Edit: The smilies in the poll are a good way for you to express you opinion on it without voting ;)

ps. It's not that I think it's complete rubbish, but it has its flaws. And I'm not going to vote 'yes' to something that isn't perfect that can NOT be undone.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
oops... where? Of course nobody should be ashamed of it, but some people might be. That's why I configured it that way. If anyone wants to share it, he/she will be able to post it.

P.S.: I found it. But anyway, the issue is still interesting enough.
 

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I haven't read it yet. I greatly favor European integration, but judging from what some people whose opinions I respect have said, this constitution doesn't look very good.

I'll have a better opinion once I get acquainted with it (not being an european leaves me with more time to do this :p )
 

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oh, there's nothing wrong with countries in Europe working together...to a certain degree, that is.
 

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PCSX2ベータテスター
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i can't see europe being a unified nation until there is a common language, which won't happen. There's also WAY too much bad blood between many of the states. It would fail as surely as the League of Nations and the United Nations.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Umm... that constitution is going to replace the single states' constitutions. It won't make Europe some sort of USA (it should be called USE then...). It is intended to make all those countries be based on the same principles which would make it easier for them to cooperate.
 

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My.. such extreme choices in the poll.. and neither is to my liking. :p


F-3582 said:
You might have read it in the news: France and the Netherlands both decided to let their people decide whether they wanted that constitution or not. In both countries the people voted against this - SHOCK! Big crisis! Europe's gonna crumble apart!
:lol:
Boltzmann said:
I haven't read it yet. I greatly favor European integration, but judging from what some people whose opinions I respect have said, this constitution doesn't look very good.
I think you'll like it.





The European Constitution isn't all crap. It's actually pretty good, from a neutral point of view. It consists of all sorts of treaties, old and new. To make it into a constitution makes them legally unavoidable in all participating countries. These treaties are actually of good nature, and would help unify European coördination and coöperation more than currently is. Considering what Super Powers the US is and a growing China is starting to become, this is far from a bad idea.



However.. as I would be influenced, I'm not neutral in this matter.


The Netherlands did not do a bad thing in co-founding the EU, but our political body is too glad to be in league with the big boys to see the negative effects the EU has recently (since late 90's) been having over us. The Netherlands used to be one of the (and THE) richest countries in the world, and now we're paying for that. As a dutch civilian, I don't like things taken away from me, but for the cause of equality, I must. Holland is relatively the biggest net payer to the EU, and it isn't helping our slowly crumbling economy. With the coming of the European Constitution, our chances of lowering our contribution would have been dwindled. I've even heard rumours that the Constitution would need us to pay even more (which I can't verify), let alone other extra costs that all need to be compensated through even higher or newer and more ridiculous taxes (we already have taxes for nearly everything).

Holland is tax-land. This directly influences consumer prices and our static (despite inflation) pay checks. All american and european countries I know of are cheaper to the consumer, save some of the skandinavian and swiss prices. Social security is being stripped down to the bare minimum, pensions of the current aging generation are not enough to live on, and this keeps going on. The EU is contributing to this, because Holland has to keep adjusting to meet its rules.

The Euro contributed to a common hatred here. Since it became our currency, prices went sky high, and we already weren't cheap in comparison to abroad.



I've also heard quite a lot of good effects (ie: over time, it would cost us less; which as I recall has now been withdrawn with the denial of the constitution) promoted by our ministers that would result from the Constitution's acceptance, but I don't understand these, as the how and why seem to be subject to the slippery minds and tight lips of politicians. I don't recall reading anything in the Constitution that would make these positive points in effect, and I wasn't about to read it again.

What was worse were the countless of threats we would 'possibly' endure if we wouldn't accept. I've joked in Cid's thread that they'd nearly go as far and claim all sorts of cancer strings would invade our bodies if we voted no: That's the impression they gave us. They've mentioned war and terror, and then there was even a commercial that was heinous to every degree.

Ofcourse, the arguments after the referendum of France were priceless. In an act of desperation, our prime-minister told the people that we would "teach the french non-sayers a lesson by voting yes!" and that "we will not let us dictate by the french, so vote yes!". I was all tingling in anticipation like a little school boy, ready to kick those french asses.. :/ .. or not. What moronic attempts to turn the tide. You've also got to love his: "I'll look like a fool to the others when I need to explain no".



Another issue is Turkey. People who've been saying that the Constitution directly influences Turkey's admission in the EU don't know ****, but neither do those who say the constitution has no effect at ALL with regards to Turkey's role.

Holland (and France, so I've heard) has suffered integration problems greatly (most heavily in the heavy-industry provinces) due to massive culture differences, most notably of respectless criminals, muslim extremists and variations of rednecks who would have their hands chopped off in their own countries. Civil War has even been mentioned as a possibility by analists, and I can attest first hand the tension which it was inspired by.

Turkey's economy is finally steadily growing again, but it still is a poor country compared to most western european ones. Its admittance to the EU will open up new possibilities (read: social wellfare) to the poorer folk, as they will more easily integrate in the other EU countries. The constitution would have made us drop our not-quite-strict-enough foreign and integration policies for something quite open to every other EU member's civilians. We have an abundance in workless people already. Imagine having a ****load of willful leeches from elsewhere added to it, being able to come in and take a bite of our 'democracy' without contributing. It has been done before our change of policies, and it would happen again.



In conclusion, I voted in favor of the Constitution.














AH!Ahaha!!1 What do they take me for? An utter moron? ;/ There's even more. To shortly name a few: Transparent efforts of pressure from other EU countries put on the Netherlands, arrogance, religious politics, and more. I don't have the time to continue this post + this post will bore you to death if it already hasn't.

The more obvious advantages of the constitution do not die with a possible death of the constitution. Also, no European Constitution invokes no change, no matter what they're telling everywhere.


3585 said:
Umm... that constitution is going to replace the single states' constitutions.
No it won't. First and foremost: It's an addendum that will only take precedence on conflicting articles. For an entire replacement, this one doesn't nearly cover enough ground.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Gaurav said:
My.. such extreme choices in the poll.. and neither is to my liking. :p
Well, in that referendum you appearantly got two choices: Yes or no. Nothing like "No, but" or "Yes, although I'd like to...". Therefore I made that poll like this.
Gaurav said:
The European Constitution isn't all crap. It's actually pretty good, from a neutral point of view. It consists of all sorts of treaties, old and new. To make it into a constitution makes them legally unavoidable in all participating countries. These treaties are actually of good nature, and would help unify European coördination and coöperation more than currently is. Considering what Super Powers the US is and a growing China is starting to become, this is far from a bad idea.
I agree with you here, but in my opinion a constitution should be "perfect". Which this one is most likely not!

Gaurav said:
However.. as I would be influenced, I'm not neutral in this matter.
Me neither.

Gaurav said:
The Netherlands did not do a bad thing in co-founding the EU, but our political body is too glad to be in league with the big boys to see the negative effects the EU has recently (since late 90's) been having over us. The Netherlands used to be one of the (and THE) richest countries in the world, and now we're paying for that. As a dutch civilian, I don't like things taken away from me, but for the cause of equality, I must. Holland is relatively the biggest net payer to the EU, and it isn't helping our slowly crumbling economy. With the coming of the European Constitution, our chances of lowering our contribution would have been dwindled. I've even heard rumours that the Constitution would need us to pay even more (which I can't verify), let alone other extra costs that all need to be compensated through even higher or newer and more ridiculous taxes (we already have taxes for nearly everything).
I don't know exactly what this constitution would mean to Germany at that point, but what I do know is that we are going to have some big problems financing our social systems (we already have them). If what you said applied for us, too, this would mean serious trouble. We already broke the EURO Stability Pact several times as you might know.

Gaurav said:
Holland is tax-land. This directly influences consumer prices and our static (despite inflation) pay checks. All american and european countries I know of are cheaper to the consumer, save some of the skandinavian and swiss prices. Social security is being stripped down to the bare minimum, pensions of the current aging generation are not enough to live on, and this keeps going on. The EU is contributing to this, because Holland has to keep adjusting to meet its rules.
How many % taxes do you have in Holland? Germany has about 42% depending on your income. And there's still insurances and stuff which usually eats up your christmas money....

Gaurav said:
The Euro contributed to a common hatred here. Since it became our currency, prices went sky high, and we already weren't cheap in comparison to abroad.[/qoute]

In Germany the calculations were pretty easy: 10DM became 10€. Although 1.95583DM were worth one Euro many companies decided to simply leave the numbers and just change the currency. Only the income didn't...

I am also wondering why PS2 games (except imports :D), for example are still expensive, although the Euro is pretty strong at the moment. Something stinks!

Gaurav said:
I've also heard quite a lot of good effects (ie: over time, it would cost us less; which as I recall has now been withdrawn with the denial of the constitution) promoted by our ministers that would result from the Constitution's acceptance, but I don't understand these, as the how and why seem to be subject to the slippery minds and tight lips of politicians. I don't recall reading anything in the Constitution that would make these positive points in effect, and I wasn't about to read it again.

What was worse were the countless of threats we would 'possibly' endure if we wouldn't accept. I've joked in Cid's thread that they'd nearly go as far and claim all sorts of cancer strings would invade our bodies if we voted no: That's the impression they gave us. They've mentioned war and terror, and then there was even a commercial that was heinous to every degree.
Well, you were at least given a choice. Our politicians (all of them greatly honoured to serve good ol' Europe) said that the people voted for them and would therefore be of course supporting that constitution.

Gaurav said:
Ofcourse, the arguments after the referendum of France were priceless. In an act of desperation, our prime-minister told the people that we would "teach the french non-sayers a lesson by voting yes!" and that "we will not let us dictate by the french, so vote yes!". I was all tingling in anticipation like a little school boy, ready to kick those french asses.. :/ .. or not. What moronic attempts to turn the tide. You've also got to love his: "I'll look like a fool to the others when I need to explain no".
That bloody traitor!!! How could he ever say anything like that about our brothers, the french?!? Wait... they voted no, so they betrayed us... but our chancellor on the other hand always said that...

Damn! You are confusing me!!!

The reason why I would have voted against it are:

- One option the EU considered, the possibility for a foreign (EU) worker to get the conditions he is used to in his home country was said to be a part of that constitution (the French were told that, I didn't find it myself). This would mean that companies could simply import their workers from Eastern Europe instead of building new factories there. And no, I'm no Naz1 (sorry for tricking your censorship bot :p).
- EU countries would be forced to reinforce their troops to meet "Recent and future requirements".
- Social interest would get a minor priority in contrast to a liberalisation of the economy. This would mean social systems like the one in Holland everywhere...
- A countrie's weight in polls would be determined by its population... Not that bad for Germany, but indeed a problem for Holland and other small countries.

I am not completely against this constitution, but it has some major defects. Our chancellor (der Gerd) already stated that he didn't wish any discussions about re-considering the content of thi constitutions. I am curious if the "opinion poll" (don't take this seriously) of our biggest (baddest) tabloid "Bild" might make him change his mind. In their opinion 97% of the German people would have voted against this constitution (97% of the "Bild" readers and "RTL" viewers).
 

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F-3582 said:
Well, in that referendum you appearantly got two choices: Yes or no. Nothing like "No, but" or "Yes, although I'd like to...". Therefore I made that poll like this.
Yes, but I was referring to the extreme subtitles that go with the choices made available. :p

F-3582 said:
I don't know exactly what this constitution would mean to Germany at that point, but what I do know is that we are going to have some big problems financing our social systems (we already have them). If what you said applied for us, too, this would mean serious trouble. We already broke the EURO Stability Pact several times as you might know.
Yes, indeed.

F-3582 said:
How many % taxes do you have in Holland? Germany has about 42% depending on your income. And there's still insurances and stuff which usually eats up your christmas money....
About the same, but I was actually referring to the number of taxes they've made up here. Try building something here. It's ridiculous. :lol:

F-3582 said:
In Germany the calculations were pretty easy: 10DM became 10€. Although 1.95583DM were worth one Euro many companies decided to simply leave the numbers and just change the currency. Only the income didn't...
There are people who would argue the same for the Netherlands, but lately, that can only be said of food and drinks. FYI, €1 = FL 2.20371.

F-3582 said:
Well, you were at least given a choice. Our politicians (all of them greatly honoured to serve good ol' Europe) said that the people voted for them and would therefore be of course supporting that constitution.
Yes, but daily I have to encounter the annoyance of thickheaded yes voters who scream the no voters have doomed us all. :p Such fun. :)

F-3582 said:
That bloody traitor!!! How could he ever say anything like that about our brothers, the french?!? Wait... they voted no, so they betrayed us... but our chancellor on the other hand always said that...

Damn! You are confusing me!!!
:lol: I liked some female french asses I knew in particular, and I'll be damned if I kicked those. :p

F-3582 said:
Social interest would get a minor priority in contrast to a liberalisation of the economy. This would mean social systems like the one in Holland everywhere...
Well, we haven't reached our deepest low yet. :) It's just that in comparison, we used to be so much better off.




Six countries denying the constitution = trashbin. Five would apparently mean to rework it entirely. Hope, you can.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Gaurav said:
Well, we haven't reached our deepest low yet. :) It's just that in comparison, we used to be so much better off.
OK, what about this: US social systems everywhere... Better?

Gaurav said:
Six countries denying the constitution = trashbin. Five would apparently mean to rework it entirely. Hope, you can.
Where did you read that?
 

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F-3582 said:
OK, what about this: US social systems everywhere... Better?
I'm thinking we have it a little better @ health care for the moment (we're not done yet with economizing..), but for the rest .. I'm really not sure.

F-3582 said:
Where did you read that?
2 seperate dutch newspapers, friday. So no linkage.
 

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Eventually wvery country on earth will unionize and every human will have a chip in their right hand or forehead to be used like credit cards. :lol:
 
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