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When you dream is it just a illusion of something created by your mind or is it something more? could you be looking into another universe from another prespective, As far as I know consciouness is derived from quantum processes that may occur in other possible universes and we are witnessing another possible universe where everything works slightly diffrently[size=-1][/size]
 

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I'd like to know that as well (Boltz? :p). But I've heard several times before that your brain uses dreams to get rid of unecessary bits of memory too; I'm not sure to which extend this is accurate though, if not accurateless at all.
 

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Hmm...a strange product that occurs after the brains short term memory stores into long term?

The ID and SuperEgo coming to the fore (Philosophy anyone?)

A glimpse into another dimension or time?
 

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The theory about quantum effects playing a role in consciousness isn't a very popular one among neuroscientists. There're not a lot of Penrose non-computationalists out there.

Anyway, not even Penrose would defend the hypothesis that dreams are a "wormhole" to another branch of the quantum megaverse (i.e. a possible world, in the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics - of course, this would require that the many-world interpretation be the right interpretation of quantum mechanics). Check Penrose's books The Emperor's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind for more info. (BTW, just for the record, I do think that the many-worlds interpretation is the correct one). Personally, I don't think there's any truth to Penrose's speculations - there's no empirical support whatsoever to them.

Now, speaking of the dreams themselves, they apparently have no purpose at all (Freud and the psychanalists to the contrary). All the evidence gathered by psychologists thus far point to the fact that dreams are consistent with waking behavior and thoughts, therefore they're not accessing hidden reservoirs of mystical energies, nor alternate quantum dimensions. As far as current research on psychology, physiology and neuroscience goes, dreams are just a by-product of our higher-cognitive processes. For more info, check out David Foulkes' Dreaming: A Cognitive-Psychological Analysis .

Besides, dreaming creates a distinct signature in our brain processes, which further suggests a pure physicalist explanation for it, entirely within the current framework of physics/neuroscience (that is, no weird quantum effects in consciousness). When we're in REM-sleep (the stage where are most prone to dreaming) our brain produces a lot more electricity (5 times as much) and our delta waves are produced at a rate of about 60 per second (as opposed to around 3 per second when we're in deep sleep). Often there're also measurable changes in heart rate, blood pressure, breathing etc. Activity in the pre-frontal cortex is usually reduced during dreaming, which can also explain many of the bizarre effects in dreams and our inability to notice them (the pre-frontal cortex is responsible for most of our higher-level thinking). Memory encoding is also pretty weak during dreaming (this lends support to the hypothesis that dreaming has no adaptive purpose, and is in fact an evolutionary spandrel ).

The brain region responsible for regulating REM-sleep is the pons , which is an ancient part of the brain, responsible for reflects such as breathing. This fact explains the physiological changes that so often accompany dreaming.

As you can see there's no need to posit anything out of the ordinary in order to explain dreams.
 

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I don't really know why, but I haven't had a dream for a long time now, or I just don't remember seeing...

But anyway, I've had plenty of dreams that often SEEM to happen right the next day, I don't mean they excactly come true, but some phenomenon bring the dream back into my mind... OH, I'm not crazy!!!
 

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Well Boltzmann certainly makes a good point but i think that there is much much more to dreams that meets the eye i am no scientist and i have no proves to support my claims(well more like opinions).
Anyway i believe there is a connection betwene dreams and dejavu's, becouse man they are so real most of the times and some dreams tend to be very belivable.
 

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Well there is not much known about our subconsiousness and what our brain is really capable of, IIRC the average human uses only about 11% of his brain processing power so who knows whats in store for the future generation.
I usually tend to believe that everything is possible even if it sound crazy or unachivable, history tought us that.
So maybe in a near future science will be able to unfold some of the secrets that surround our brain activity.(hopefully before we blow ourselfs)
 

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Sometimes dreams add memory... sometimes I dream of a person (which I don't know) and a past event with the person (which never occured, I think) automatically enters my brain oO And it feels so real too until I completely wake up and realize it's just a weird dream :/

And who's Boltzmann... how come he know so much? oO Creepy.
 

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Typhoon 01 said:
Well Boltzmann certainly makes a good point but i think that there is much much more to dreams that meets the eye i am no scientist and i have no proves to support my claims(well more like opinions).
Intuitions can go widely wrong, you know. That's why intuition is never a substitute for the scientific method. In fact, a lot of modern science is very counterintuitive (evolutionary biology, quantum physics, general relativity, a lot of probability theory...).
You're free to believe whatever you wish, but these beliefs are not likely to be useful (i.e. right) unless you can provide empirical validation for them.
Further research on psychology or neuroscience may change my current views on dreams and dreaming, but until then I'll choose the most prosaic explanation (i.e. dreams are a purely physical phenomenon and have no adaptive purpose and are a by-product of the underlying cognitive processes going on in our brains).

Typhoon 01 said:
Anyway i believe there is a connection betwene dreams and dejavu's, becouse man they are so real most of the times and some dreams tend to be very belivable.
Now that's just not true. Deja-vus are occasioned by misfiring of neurons in our brains (a cognitive mistake), where you end interpreting a new experience as if it had already happened. I've written about deja-vus elsewhere on the forums - there's a lengthy explanation somewhere ;)

Typhoon 01 said:
Well there is not much known about our subconsiousness and what our brain is really capable of, IIRC the average human uses only about 11% of his brain processing power so who knows whats in store for the future generation.
That's not true, we use 100% of our brains. I've heard this claim countless times, but it's just bogus (a suburban myth, as philosopher Robert T.Carroll calls it).

Check out this page for a very accessible explanation of the question. (It's a small page, so you can read it in a couple of minutes. I assure you it's worth your time ;) )
 

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Thanx for the explanation!
 

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In my experience (meaning, based on my dreams) dreams are, most of the time, just stuff (feelings, emotions, thoughts, whatever) you've hidden inside of yourself that you are not aware of (or sometimes that you wish you wouldn't be aware of)... many times I've spent a couple of hours dwelling on the meaning of whatever I dreamt just to find out that it has a rather complex meaning to my person... then again, perhaps this is nothing but a mere coincidence.
 

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WindHydra said:
Sometimes dreams add memory... sometimes I dream of a person (which I don't know) and a past event with the person (which never occured, I think) automatically enters my brain oO And it feels so real too until I completely wake up and realize it's just a weird dream :/
From what i remember from my psychology class this year, most people don't remember most of their dreams enless they are interupted during them during sleep, or enless they are extremely bizarre (aren't bizarre things things you'd remember over normal things?).
I don't really know why, but I haven't had a dream for a long time now, or I just don't remember seeing...

But anyway, I've had plenty of dreams that often SEEM to happen right the next day, I don't mean they excactly come true, but some phenomenon bring the dream back into my mind... OH, I'm not crazy!!!
For the first part, as i said most people don't remember 9/10 of their dreams even though they have them. I think its that the average person goes through like 6 sleep cycles a night (correct me if i'm wrong) and during REM sleep you are least aware of anything but that is when you have dreams. And as for that deja-vu stuff, that happens to me too, just feels like its happened before.
 

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Boltzmann said:
Memory encoding is also pretty weak during dreaming (this lends support to the hypothesis that dreaming has no adaptive purpose
-- This part is incorrect.
Recent sleep research findings demonstrated that students deprived of REM sleep were less able to recall their studies from the day or week before, suggesting that dreaming may be a sorting mechanism by which short-term experiences are compartmentalized into long-term memory. The study found learning capacity affected with both academic skill (based on evaluation by quizzing) and with muscle memory retention for physical tasks (such as measuring subsequent performance in stacking games). This is why if you spend all day playing a new video game, you may end up dreaming about it later that night as your brain tries to gleen whatever it can from those repetitive experiences, especially true of games involving geometric abstraction, like Tetris.

The rest of the theoretical crap about dreams being a quantum portal is... crap... but it might make for some good sci-fi.


Narrrf said:
Meh, sometimes dreams mean something, sometimes they don't. Most of them aren't worth thinking about anyway. Though sometimes I wonder.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=brendaemerson3
Read at least a couple of pages before judging yeah?
Between the self-parodying derangement of Bible thumping and fundamentalist voodoo which made my head sore, the imaginative bits of dream analysis at that blog are completely disconnected interpretation. In one entry (Nov 17), she talks about a dream of three toy dolls repeatedly running from their hiding place in a closet, then she arrives by total non-sequitur at the conclusion that these must (therefore!) represent her personal "God-given" talents which should not be denied.:???: How anti-climactic. From the dramatic setup, I would have thought the payoff would be a more literal Twilight Zone punchline about her sister later becoming pregnant with triplets or somesuch. In fact, she had another dream on Oct. 11 about dolls at a Chinese restaurant also representing her irrepressible "blessed talents". ...I'm detecting a theme here.

I once had to write an essay on Freudian dream analysis. (It's sitting somewhere on my old 386 computer. Maybe I'll dig it up later.) My analysis is that this woman is a total lost cause nutjob, projecting "spirtual" meaning into every mundane occurrence. Even more disturbing, she's brainwashing her son to believe this nonsense: (Oct 07)"The last few nights my son said teh Lord had been speaking to him...":???: [Read the Sept 20th entry about "witchcraft" for a good laugh.]
She also massages the anecdotal data by jumping around with dreams recalled from 10 or 15 years earlier as if to establish continuity, neglecting the much larger disqualifying percentage of meaningless dreams she would have had in the interim. (What, no mention of sexual reverie?)
In other cases, it seems fairly obvious that her dreams are just re-interpretation of Bible stories floating through her head. The (Sept 08) dream of walking barefoot on the beach with Jesus echoes strongly of the parable about "one set of footprints", newly furnished with some sappy romantic melodrama about her fiance as metaphoric saviour, which actually speaks more revealingly of her psychological insecurities and dependency issues. --Is it any wonder the church has been made her emotional crutch?:p

You should read Clive Barker's Books Of Blood. Since you seem to be into this mystical dream-ordained stuff, those creepy stories will be especially effective at scaring you sh!tless. :lol:


I keep having these weird dreams where my teeth are made of wax. I press them with my fingers, they move around and deform shape, molars shifting out of alignment in the roof of my mouth before coming detached with strands of webby adhesive. That can't be right. :xomunch:
 

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GALVATRON said:
-- This part is incorrect.
Recent sleep research findings demonstrated that students deprived of REM sleep were less able to recall their studies from the day or week before, suggesting that dreaming may be a sorting mechanism by which short-term experiences are compartmentalized into long-term memory. The study found learning capacity affected with both academic skill (based on evaluation by quizzing) and with muscle memory retention for physical tasks (such as measuring subsequent performance in stacking games). This is why if you spend all day playing a new video game, you may end up dreaming about it later that night as your brain tries to gleen whatever it can from those repetitive experiences, especially true of games involving geometric abstraction, like Tetris.
I've to disagree with your position here. Such studies only show that REM sleep has an adaptive purpose (I don't dispute this), but not dreams themselves.
Most (if not all, I'm not sure) mammals have a REM-sleep phase too. It probably serves for an analagous adaptive purpose (shutting down the pre-frontal cortex helps in resting, and also helping in the formation of long-term memory [memory consolidation]).
As far as I know, dreams are not a necessary part of the process (as I've said before, they're probably a by-product of our cognitive architecture). If any newer studies show evidence contrary to this (i.e. showing an adaptive purpose for dreams), please let me know ;)

GALVATRON said:
I once had to write an essay on Freudian dream analysis. (It's sitting somewhere on my old 386 computer. Maybe I'll dig it up later.)
I hate Freud and his analysis :p
I find way more interesting to see how people analyse their own dreams. It always shows what their bias and pre-conceived notions are (as they consistently apply those in their analysis).
Judging from what you told about the woman in that blog (I didn't read it, it was too boring) is clearly doing it. Her interpretation of her dreams shows much more about her than the dreams themselves (if they show anything at all, that is).
 

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Boltzmann said:
As far as I know, dreams are not a necessary part of the process
IIRC, an inconclusive catch of the study was that while it's possible to monitor brainwaves and eye movements of a sleeping subject to determine when they slip into REM phase, there's no way of objectively measuring whether or not they're dreaming short of waking them up and asking them if they were.
There was another recent (unrelated) report about alcohol consumption that showed it has similar negative effect on memory consolidation up to three days later, so, for example, students who go binge-drinking on a weekend will end up forgetting whatever they studied earlier in the week. I'll try to dig up the links later.


I hate Freud and his analysis
I find way more interesting to see how people analyse their own dreams. It always shows what their bias and pre-conceived notions are (as they consistently apply those in their analysis).
My essay was refuting Freud's theories, coming to your same conclusion that the dreamer's interpretation is more telling than the dream itself. Freud reportedly had an Oedipus complex and assumed everyone else must have had one too, so his dream readings were mostly an expression of his own sexual fetishes.


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EDIT:
I haven't been able to locate that story about dreaming and memory consolidation yet. If it turns up, I'll edit this post again to add it here.
The first half of this item about how juggling makes you smarter briefly expresses some of the same ideas, more relating to sleep in general than dreams per se. ...I'm wondering if maybe dreams are the brain's fuzzy awareness of the growth of such new neural connections? (I can juggle 3 balls. nyah! :D:D:D)

Here's the report with the researchers of effects of alcohol on memory retention:
Learning under the influence
College students have a reputation for working hard and playing hard too -- enjoying more than their share of alcohol. But if you are one of those students, you might think twice about when to imbibe your favorite refreshment after watching this...

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GALVATRON said:
IIRC, an inconclusive catch of the study was that while it's possible to monitor brainwaves and eye movements of a sleeping subject to determine when they slip into REM phase, there's no way of objectively measuring whether or not they're dreaming short of waking them up and asking them if they were.
I guess we'll have to wait for more fine-tuned studies, then (functional brain imaging will probably be able to tell us when the subject is dreaming, one day...).

GALVATRON said:
There was another recent (unrelated) report about alcohol consumption that showed it has similar negative effect on memory consolidation up to three days later, so, for example, students who go binge-drinking on a weekend will end up forgetting whatever they studied earlier in the week. I'll try to dig up the links later.
I heard something about it, but haven't actually read anything concrete. The links will be appreciated ;)


GALVATRON said:
My essay was refuting Freud's theories, coming to your same conclusion that the dreamer's interpretation is more telling than the dream itself. Freud reportedly had an Oedipus complex and assumed everyone else must have had one too, so his dream readings were mostly an expression of his own sexual fetishes.
For a moment I thought you were deceived by Freud's ideas :)
 

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Apparently, what a human being dreams, seeming like it occupies the 7-8 hours they sleep, only happens for about 5 seconds real time (concerning brain activity).

But I have an idea to the purpose/origions of 'dreaming:

-Dreams are as a result of memories, or other information recieved by your perseptions which your mind, subconciouslly, conjures up to keep yourself distracted, allowing your body to recover it's necessary strength without risk of you interfearing with it from boredom; hence getting up.

....what do you think?

r2rX :D
 

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ready2rumbelX said:
Apparently, what a human being dreams, seeming like it occupies the 7-8 hours they sleep, only happens for about 5 seconds real time (concerning brain activity).
And when you think about the dream, it's only like about 5 seconds until you get to the end.
-Dreams are as a result of memories, or other information recieved by your perseptions which your mind, subconciouslly, conjures up to keep yourself distracted, allowing your body to recover it's necessary strength without risk of you interfearing with it from boredom; hence getting up.

....what do you think?

r2rX :D
yes and no.

I had a dream I was Master cheif from halo (Oh no, he's bringing up halo again), It was awsome :) I had the dream after I found out I could hold 3 needlers and I was doing that trying to kill this super smart grunt that could dodge needles. I got him eventually.
 
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