[Kraelis]

Maybe the cows have something that interests them. Maybe they've been trying to recreate a bovarian ecosystem but seem to fail, so they're doing some sample extractions. In the development of science, scientists have done things which seem ridiculous now, but was perfectly sensible back then. It goes with the problem of expanding our frontiers... we lack knowledge. Eventually, we learn.

And for them, it might be rather important. Humans go all the way to the deepest, darkest parts of the world for research and experimentation. For them, travel might not be such a bad or difficult idea given their objecttives (which we don't really know, so we can't tell if it's worth it or not)

Not that I subscribe to the idea of UFOs and aliens visiting us, period, but I think it's possible.

Who knows? Maybe for aliens, we don't even count as sentient. They don't want to disturb the bacteria very much (in an anthrocentric manner). :lol:

 

[Kraelis]

Don't try to compare aliens who are able to build ships which travel faster than light to primitive human scientists. Your argument is completely bogus.

If they are this advanced and just want to do some experimenting, they'd simply send a probe to retrieve a DNA sample from our cows (no need to waste resources on a manned mission) and clone all the cows they wanted (even allowing for genetic diversity if they wanted it).

The way you put it, you make the aliens look like 18th century human scientists doing experiments on abiogenesis.

So they travel thousands of light years to mutilate cattle and make crop circles? And you call this an intelligent species?

If anything, Independence Day got the right idea. They wouldn't come wanting to mutilate our cattle, or talk about how we should stop manufacturing nuclear weapons. They would come to conquer. This is the simplest instinct in nature, and it's not unlikely to happen somewhere else.

Ooh... I think I hit a nerve there.

No, I wasn't attacking the development of science, bud.

Essentially, you see the progression of technology and intelligence for that matter in a somewhat linear way, assuming that just because a species is so advanced as to be able to travel light speed means every mode of thought is "advanced" as you think.

It may seem "illogical", but really, the train of thought you follow is a thought process developed by humans, developed not as an island on its own but also affected by conditions (cultural, biological etc...) unique to humans.

Man could've simply waited a bit to develop the most sophisticated tools so there's no need to send a manned expedition out. But in reality, man WANTS to go and experience it, if not only for the difficulty of doing so.

Maybe the need for experience is anthrocentric. But who knows? Maybe it isn't.

I'm not saying that aliens did come and create crop circles, nor am I saying they didn't. It's simply more of.. "I won't discount that possibility".

Besides, they could be done with the sampling now and are cloning as we speak :lol:

By the way, you mentioned that conquest is the simplest instinct in nature. Actually, they could be doing so conscious of the act, or we could be so insignificant to them that they never realized that we are not simply bacteria to play with.

But really now... a species that can boast of an incredibly advanced civilization, and that can travel light speed, succumbs to the simplest basic instinct of conquest? And I remember someone telling Elly that development is about not falling to the basest, hard-wired instincts of the self (or something to that effect).

A bloodthirsty species... you call that an intelligent species?

See how it can go both ways?

Peace. Just a few thought cookies to nibble on.

 

[Kraelis]

I never said you were attacking it.

Technology does not increase in a linear progression. It's expansion is exponential (well, sort of). Look at the 20th century if you don't believe me. We develop tools that help us create new tools.

"Linear" as in the sense of once you get to FTL travel, you assume that you know pretty much a LOT of other stuff.... ah.. what the heck, you already acknowledged that assumption of yours. I guess "unified" may be a better term. But... anyway....

But I really made a small assumption. I assumed that any race that developed FTL travel must be a curious race, so that they would do research on all fronts, biology included. And cloning is a small feat compared to FTL travel. See, we already can make clones but we're not even close to FTL travel. But all of this is unecessary, really.

If they're so interested in biology as to come to a far away planet and take samples from their cattle, then their technology is surely advanced enough to include cloning (see my point above about cloning being way easier than FTL travel).

Depends, really, on their priorities. We don't have sufficient proof that if we had been able to put much more effort on space travel, at the cost of other sciences, we might be closer to FTL than we are to cloning. What if they had some form of belief which barred genetic research?

You can argue (as I did in another thread) that curiosity is not necessarly needed for technological development. But if a race does not possess this curiosity, they wouldn't be doing experiments with Earthly cattle, would they?

As you said... Intergalatic pranksters. :lol:

It's illogical from a game theoretical perspective, and also for engineering reasons. Game theory holds true for everyone in the universe. If a race hasn't discovered it, then they can't do FTL travel... really.

It would be if it followed a reasoning if resources were scarce and emotions / alien personal preferences were not in play. Besides, they might have a Bush there too. Simply because something is possible in an effecient manner doesn't mean it will be done that way. A lot of factors have to be considered as well.

Have you seen manned expeditions to Pluto? Do you know why we never sent anyone there (even though many people would be willing to go)? Because it's too costly. And why would aliens waste their time going to another planet to mutilate cattle and make crop circles? Maybe they're intergalactic pranksters?

None. But the point is, man would want to go there nonetheless. We don't know the mechanics of the implementation of FTL. We don't know their coping mechanism. Besides, it might not be too expensive for them.

I can't see why not. It's very hard to get rid of your instincts. Are you jealous of your GF/wife? That's an instinct. Do you like to have sex? That's an instinct too. I don't see we getting rid of any of these instincts any time soon.
...
Emotional content and intelligence are orthogonal to each other. Study evolutionary psychology, neuroscience and cognitive psychology and you'll see it.

Yeah, but imagine what would happen if humans could not control these instincts. We might not have progressed much if at all. To be human is precisely to be above the carnal instincts.

Anyway, this advanced species of yours wants to mutilate alien cattle and make crop circles. Is that really better than conquest?

It *might* have a practical use for them, but it's way better than conquest. Would like to die in an alien onslaught?

Of course, all my arguments would come crashing down in the face of an efficient-as-AI intellect. :hdbash:

Anyway.... we're arguing over matters that we really know squat about. It's fun, but let's not get carried away. Unless, there's actually an alien around here already (sounds like Stephen Hawkings' refusal to make a bet on time travel :lol: )