Are Macs built better than PCs?

runawayprisoner said:

To me:

Custom-built PC > Mac > prebuilt PCs > Overclocked PCs.

In terms of price/value/stability. And before anyone says you've got a 4GHz quad sitting on that desk, tell me if it's still surviving... 5 years from now.

Click to expand...

That's a huge generalization right there. My overclock needs very little voltage (1.2V). It won't damage the chip anytime soon, not even if five years I'd think (if it does, then it wouldn't had lasted any longer either way). My CPU is "only" overclocked 20% (although I did have it 33% overclocked at 4.5GHz for a while).

As Cid Highwind said, what I worry about most is the MCH temperatures. Mine has always run hot, right from day one. I even did the modification of removing the heatpipe and reapplying the stock paste with Arctic Silver 5, a method that was claimed to almost for sure lower temperatures by ~10C because ASUS uses paste that bad, but my temperatures... pretty much didn't move. I should had RMAd it from the start, but it wasn't terribly high, not just as low as others got, so that's not really a valid reason to.

As of late though, the MCH temperatures are up even more (used to be 45C to 50C, then 50C-55C, and now it's 55C, will go to ~60C load), as is almost my whole system basically (not counting the CPU, which ironically runs cooler than everything else in my system, save maybe any of the HDDs which it may be tied with), and I'm not quite sure why. The voltage is 1.39V (stock is 1.25, but it does not run stably at that even at stock frequency, it needs ~1.35V, so a .1V increase). It looks like I'll have to add that passive fan afterall, as well as putting that side door for my case with the fans back on (odd how it never raised temperatures after taking it off, but they're up now, so I wonder if it'll even help).

Did you miss the following three things?

1. I'm running 8GB, four modules, of RAM, which puts more strain on the Northbridge.

2. I couldn't get the supposed listed "stock" 1.25V value for this chipset to work even with 4GB at stock frequencies (not sure why), so I'd need ~1.3V anyway, meaning I'm only ~0.1V (.092 actually since it's 1.392V) over that. At "stock" frequencies, the "Auto" setting put it ~1.4V anyway, which is where I have it with 8GB at 1600MHz effective (the chipset is rated for 1333MHz, but could obviously easily do 1600MHz, as the X48 does and it's really just a tweaked X38 with official 1600MHz support).

3. The chipset has ran hot from day one. It's idling at 54C right now, which is warm, but Intel lists it up to 95C for the X38 and 85C for the X48 (I honestly doubt it to go high safely, but hey, that's what they say).

4. Here's a fourth. Also notice how I said my entire system temperatures are up as of recent, yet I've had it overclocked from day one. I'm not quite sure what the issue is. It's not overtly dusty, but maybe it's time to clean it out real good, reapply thermal paste, and add those fans. I'd also wager ambient temperatures are up and playing their role, since that's the number one thing for a system wide increase. Either way, the overclock has always been there, and the temperatures were always pretty low (not extremely low), and only now are they "warm", but again, not overly so, so I don't think they're directly or solely linked.

I don't think my overclock is doing any real damage, and I've never seen a hardware related crash outside when I was actually applying and testing my tweaks (I have yet to see a BSOD or anything in Windows 7, which I've been using for many months now).

Obviously, all else being the same, yes, one PC tweaked for low voltages and temperatures versus any overclocked one, even that same one overclocked and tweaked, the one that isn't overclocked would be considered stable. You're just stating the obvious, but you're making a huge generalization and painting the picture wrong the categorize them as unstable overall. I could care less if I shave a few years off the lifespan, if that. It'll be old and slow (or at least fast enough for a prime PC) five or more years from now.

Oh no, no, I'm not saying that they are bad because they are unstable. Note the part where I said it's price/value/stability.

That's what it's all about. You can get a system like that going for years, yeah... Heck, forget years, decades. But the amount of money you need to pour into it will be much higher than if you had bought a pre-built system with similar components.

The reason?

1) Since it's a PC you built yourself, chances are you don't have warranty on the entire system as a whole. Now supposing you fried something and you still have the warranty, you still gotta pay shipping or repair fees or something like that or have to compromise something, unless you're dealing with a vendor who is completely perfect in that regard.

2) If it was a pre-built system then chances are you don't get to overclock or the overclocking support is very mediocre anyway, and if you open up the case to change components, you would void the warranty, and... either you run into the problem above, or you meet a company who is lenient enough to let it go and repair the computer for you anyway, but again, with a fee applied.

3) Supposing you made it this far without a single hiccup/error/fault/BSOD/break/whatever... then look back at the cost of the components that you had to add to keep it that way. Or if you're still using stock fans and stock components and it's rock-solid so far, you're probably one of the luckiest ones.

4) So you have a perfectly working overclocked system that does not require you to add anything exotic and falls into the perfect line, it doesn't mean that other people do, too. I mean... consider this: you yourself are thinking of adding another fan. It's that mentality that drives up the price of the system as a whole. Even if you do get a bit of performance out of the system, it'll just be about the same performance/price ratio as a pre-built system. Most often higher since you have to pay full price for softwares, unless you're toting Linux or something then... what was the point of running a Core 2 Quad on a Linux system in the first place if you're not a scientist working on a missile trajectory calculating program? Or assuming you did get it down to way below the price of a pre-built system using... "other means" such as promotions or cash backs or whatever, then again, I have to remind you that not everybody has it.

5) Reciting something again: just because you don't have issues doesn't mean other people don't have it. Just because a group of... say... 1 millions don't have it doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't. We don't have exact statistics, but what I do know is that you have more people complaining on forums about overclocking problems, RMA problems, and etc... than people announcing they got their perfect overclocking machine of dream.

And again, it's not just about the CPU, the RAM, your motherboard, or the stability of the system as a whole, it's about how much you have to pay, what you are getting out of it, and how long you can keep it going. That was what I meant. But I think you, and many others who are in the same class as you, looking for a system as high as one can afford, will just be upgrading before your system wears out anyway, so a stability test wouldn't be applicable. And then your old components will cover a portion of the cost for the new system, then you can go on with thinking that you got the faster and later and possibly better components of the generation until 2 or 3 more years coming. And that's just another thing. :innocent: You do get higher performance, but you pay more. Not that you'd notice it since you can make much more money in 2 or 3 years time.

Nowadays people don't buy a computer and be done with it anymore... Unlike back in the days, you buy a computer and you run it that way until your age has changed its tenth digit.

So what you're saying is, prebuilt PCs are more about being no frills and needing less direct involvement from the end user, and most non-enthusaists don't put as much money into OEMs as enthusiasts put into custom built PCs? That's kind of stating the obvious.

You seem to be painting them as more of a "waste" per se, and that I don't fully agree with. Everyone has hobbies where they put more money into something than someone else who just wants enough to get by. If it wasn't PCs, it'd be something else.

Also, as for point number two, so far as I know, most (maybe all) OEMs won't void your warranty if you simply open the case, or replace or add parts. They won't cover the part you added obviously (it's own warranty will), or any possible damage done by you in the process (if they find out, which is the key part), but most are pretty lenient in that regard.