Recommend HTPC.

[rui-no-onna]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

If you look at the CPU Burn graph, you'll see that under CPU load, the 2100T does show 10W less power consumption than the regular 2100. Considering that's 10W compared to 36W or 46W, it's a pretty sizable 20-30% difference.

Yes, it's a sizable difference but nowhere near the 30W that 35W vs 65W TDP implies (yeah, yeah, TDP is a guide for cooling and not indicative of actual power consumption, blah, blah, blah).

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

The gap between the 2100T and the i5 2310 is even larger. It's 20W over 36W or 56W, or something that you can consider to be closer to 40-60% saving.

True. But if you look at how much you're actually saving in terms of electricity cost, it's not that big. You're better off trying to save electricity somewhere else (e.g. air conditioning, refrigerator, etc). That's also at full CPU load. The faster processor will finish the job faster so you also need to take into account the time that the system is at full load to get the actual kWh used.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

As an aside, h.264 decoding would just show the power consumption of the internal HD video decoder chip. It's not indicative of how much power the processor cores would use at all.

Yes, but that's system power consumption and it shows you how much power the system would use when using these different processors as an HTPC. My builds are usually at 5~10% CPU utilization when I'm watching stuff. Even Netflix is just at 8~15%. That's nowhere near full load.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

And the 1-thread test is weird. It looks as if Turbo is not kicking in at all. Something is probably being thermal-throttled there.

Again, Turbo is not available on Core i3 or lower. The only processors with Turbo on that review are the i5-2390T (2.7GHz stock, 3.5GHz Turbo, 35W TDP, dual-core, hyper-threaded - this is probably the most similar CPU to the one in the Mac Mini), i5-2500T (2.3GHz stock, 3.3GHz Turbo, 45W TDP, quad-core) and i5-2310 (2.9GHz stock, 3.2GHz Turbo, quad-core). Given the i5-2390T used 20.8W compared to 19.3W on the i3-2120 3.3GHz and 17.8W on the i3-2100 3.1GHz, I'd say Turbo is working just fine.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

All things considered, though, the Mac Mini still uses far less power than the high-end dual-cores of the Sandy Bridge lineup.

True but it's not that much less. We're looking at a difference of 5W idle and 10~15W full CPU load here. Certainly wouldn't put a big dent on the electricity bill. It's not like these things will be running off a battery where every milliwat counts.

By the way, the link for the Mac Mini review you posted mentioned power consumption is a bit higher when running on Windows so I think we might see similar power consumption on the Mac Mini as on the i5-2390T from the Xbit Labs review.

You've already said it before, there's very little difference in performance between desktop and mobile Sandy Bridge. I reckon if you compare them core for core, clock for clock, you won't see any difference in performance at all. On the other side of the coin, it seems as though there's barely any difference in power consumption, too, at least when looking at processors with comparable configurations/classes (stock and Turbo clock speeds, core count, hyper-threading support and TDP). With very careful selection of parts, it's possible to build a desktop with mobile-like level power consumption.

[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by rui-no-onna

Again, Turbo is not available on Core i3 or lower. The only processors with Turbo on that review are the i5-2390T (2.7GHz stock, 3.5GHz Turbo, 35W TDP, dual-core, hyper-threaded - this is probably the most similar CPU to the one in the Mac Mini), i5-2500T (2.3GHz stock, 3.3GHz Turbo, 45W TDP, quad-core) and i5-2310 (2.9GHz stock, 3.2GHz Turbo, quad-core). Given the i5-2390T used 20.8W compared to 19.3W on the i3-2120 3.3GHz and 17.8W on the i3-2100 3.1GHz, I'd say Turbo is working just fine.

I am aware that Turbo is not available on the i3. What I'm trying to say is that it seems it's not even kicking in with the i5 in the 1-thread test. When you look at CPU Burn, it's clear that the gap widens due to extra overhead from all cores running, and maybe Turbo, but in the 1-thread graphs, there's nothing as such. My only conclusion is that they are running something in the background in loop that's not seriously stressing anything.

True but it's not that much less. We're looking at a difference of 5W idle and 10~15W full CPU load here. Certainly wouldn't put a big dent on the electricity bill. It's not like these things will be running off a battery where every milliwat counts.

No, but in the case of the Mac Mini, that 10~15W of saving is also translated to power that the discreet GPU can use.

By the way, the link for the Mac Mini review you posted mentioned power consumption is a bit higher when running on Windows so I think we might see similar power consumption on the Mac Mini as on the i5-2390T from the Xbit Labs review.

It's only higher on average (about 2-3W), not under maximum scenario. I have measured this myself on my own Mac Mini.

The reason is because of Windows Aero. Disable it and power consumption stays more in line with OSX.

(I'll save the "OSX is more efficient than Windows" discussion for later )

But you also gotta consider that Mac Mini measurements are always "system". There is no way to measure just the CPU on the Mac Mini. So with that in mind, the overhead is actually larger than you'd think (15~20W).

You've already said it before, there's very little difference in performance between desktop and mobile Sandy Bridge. I reckon if you compare them core for core, clock for clock, you won't see any difference in performance at all. On the other side of the coin, it seems as though there's barely any difference in power consumption, too, at least when looking at processors with comparable configurations/classes (stock and Turbo clock speeds, core count, hyper-threading support and TDP). With very careful selection of parts, it's possible to build a desktop with mobile-like level power consumption.

Yeah, but that's only if you compare them clock-for-clock.

Considering the mobile Sandy in the Mac Mini also supports Turbo, which goes to 3.3GHz, I'd say that's still quite an improvement over the i3 desktop parts. Assuming linear scaling, compared to the i3 2100T @ 2.5GHz, that's a good 30% improvement over the i3. And when you lump the 2100 on the bandwagon, or in fact, I'll even lump that i5 2500T because it's more comparable to the Mac Mini, then you're looking at an extra 10W~15W overhead, which translates to the GPU in the Mac Mini, so overall performance of Mac Mini still bests the i5 2500T.

And like I said, it's more complicated because with the Mac Mini, power consumption measurements are always "system", so if you look at it from that angle, the Mac Mini is still 10W more efficient than a comparable desktop part even with its GPU maxed out.

Though I'd agree that if you are playing HD video (not Netflix), the power consumption of a Mac Mini might well match the desktop parts. In which case, I guess you can put together something for less money, but I don't agree that it would offer comparable performance, or comparable power consumption.

[rui-no-onna]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

I am aware that Turbo is not available on the i3. What I'm trying to say is that it seems it's not even kicking in with the i5 in the 1-thread test. When you look at CPU Burn, it's clear that the gap widens due to extra overhead from all cores running, and maybe Turbo, but in the 1-thread graphs, there's nothing as such. My only conclusion is that they are running something in the background in loop that's not seriously stressing anything.

Look again.

• i3-2100 2C/4T 3.1GHz: 17.8W
• i3-2120 2C/4T 3.3GHz: 19.3W
• i5-2390T 2C/4T 2.7GHz Turbo 3.5GHz: 20.8W
• i5-2310 4C/4T 2.9GHz Turbo 3.2GHz: 21.3W
• i5-2500T 4C/4T 2.3GHz Turbo 3.3GHz: 22.3W

If you look at the idle power consumption again, it looks as if Sandy Bridge is very efficient at lowering power consumption for unneeded cores. While there seems to be some additional overhead on the quads, the power consumption is more or less in line with Turbo frequencies. It's actually quite interesting how power consumption for the dual-cores appear to be linear. There's a 200MHz difference between i3-2100 and i3-2120 and a 1.5W difference in power consumption. There's a 200MHz difference between i3-2120 and i5-2390T (Turbo) and a 1.5W difference in power consumption. If Turbo wasn't working, I reckon you can expect lower power consumption from the i5-2390T.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

you're looking at an extra 10W~15W overhead, which translates to the GPU in the Mac Mini, so overall performance of Mac Mini still bests the i5 2500T.

While percentage-wise, that's big, again, that means very little translated to the electricity bill. You can save more money by changing light bulbs or turning them off while not in use. Another thing, the extra 10~15W is only for power consumption at full load. Looking at idle, video playback and single-threaded power consumption, the difference is lower.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

Though I'd agree that if you are playing HD video (not Netflix), the power consumption of a Mac Mini might well match the desktop parts. In which case, I guess you can put together something for less money, but I don't agree that it would offer comparable performance, or comparable power consumption.

If you use the 35W TDP i5-2390T (probably very, very similar to the CPU used in the $799 Mac Mini), you can get comparable performance and power consumption. At load, the i5-2390T CPU uses 28.7W while the whole system used 40.7W. That's what, 5W higher than the one in the Mac Mini review? Course, it does drive the price up closer to Mac Mini levels. Building with an eye towards the highest efficiency would also drive the cost of the whole build up. A PicoPSU plus high efficieny AC-DC adapter can cost $100 by themselves. The $799 Mac Mini with HD6630M GPU will also have lower power consumption compared to a desktop build with any discrete GPU given the former is a mobile part and seem to actually have much lower power consumption (GPU is one area where there appears to still be a big difference in terms of power consumption).

I'll say it again, if looks and form factor is the most important thing and cost is not an issue, get the Mac Mini.

If you're willing to compromise form factor and do some grunt work in order to save some money, then build your own.

The lower power consumption, I wouldn't even worry about. Even if you do get an inefficient PSU that doubles your system power consumption, I doubt it would make a big impact on the electricity bill.

[Silenus]

Ok So no Zacate and Atom.

So this will be my build.

Core I3 2105 3.10ghz
Gigabyte GA-H61N-USB3 Intel H61 Express Chipset Mini ITX DDR3 800 Intel - LGA 1155 Motherboard
GSkill Ripjaws 8gb ddr3
Antec VP-450 450W Power Supply Not sure if this is okay.
LIAN LI PC-Q11B Will buy it at 99 bucks.
Sapphire Radeon HD6670 1 GB DDR3 VGA/DVI/HDMI PCI-Express Video Card - 100326DDR3L Not sure about this card.
Samsung Blu-Ray Combo Internal 12XReadable and DVD-Writable Drive with Lightscribe SH-B123L/BSBP

530 bucks, I'll try to get better prices, but those are the parts I want.
Recommend a cheap ssd, I have a spare 320gb sata drive I will use for data.

I measured that case and it fits and looks very good for my needs.

What do you think about this ssd.
Is it good/cheap enough.
Corsair 60 GB Force Series 3 SATA III 6Gb/s 2.5-Inch Solid State Drive - CSSD-F60GB3A-BK
Yeah I know that I'm into mac mini price territory but I can see that I'll have a better machine.

USB 3
Bluray
Good GPU
More memory

I get so hyped when I'm buying and building a rig.

__________________

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Last edited by Silenus; April 22nd, 2012 at 00:08..

[masta.g.86]

PSU should be enough. I use a 550W Antec to power an OCed i7 2600 and AMD 6870 and have not had any power issues. The only issue I can think of is that it's not modular. The wires are thin, though, and you can wrap them up/zip tie the excess wires and set them on top of the HDD tray.

The Samsung drive has an issue with the case. I have a very similar one in my case and the problem is that the open/close tray button is set too high on the faceplate. The Lian Li case basically has a hider plate with its own button. You press the button and it presses through the hider plate to the ODD faceplate button. The hider plate lip drops down and the ODD tray pops out to load or unload the disc. Anyway, as I mentioned, the button on the drive is placed a bit too high. I got around this issue by carefully supergluing a small piece of plastic to the underside of the drive's button.

If you decide to go with this hardware, be sure to do all of your initial testing with the side panel open. (like in my pics) Opening the case because you forgot to connect the 8-pin EPS connector will make you rage, or at least I raged because I mentally reminded myself several times and still forgot.

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Core i7 2600K 4.2GHz | 8GB DDR3 1600MHz
AMD Radeon HD6870 Vapor-X | Samsung 24" Widescreen 1920x1200
Realtek HD 7.1 | Klipsch 5.1 Surround Sound
Samsung 6X BD-ROM | WD 1TB + 2TB Black
Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit

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[SCHUMI_4EVER]

DON'T use RAM with huge heatspreaders like that in a smaller than usual case. Besides you're not overclocking so Corsair ValueSelect sticks will do the job fine (or whatever is cheapest over there). Also that kit is only a 2x2GB kit so 4GB.
If you absolutely feel you need some with a heatspreader then get something like this kit
http://www.amazon.com/Mushkin-PC3-10...5052247&sr=1-1
though it appears to be way overpriced.

Edit: here's a slightly cheaper kit
http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Techn.../ref=de_a_smtd
and a perhaps better known alternative
http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-PC3-10...xp_grid_pt_2_2

__________________

Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) | ASUS P5Q | 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 | ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M | Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1

The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

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Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; April 22nd, 2012 at 01:12..

[Silenus]

@Schumi do you think the board I chose will support that memory, don't know if the frequency is too high.

@masta which psu in that price range you recommend that is modular that will be enough for my needs.
Do you think that gpu will fit okay in that case.

What do you guys think of that video card, can I get a better one in that price range?

Found this Corsair psu.
http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-430-Wa...5054292&sr=1-1

Would that be enough for my parts.

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...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

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Last edited by Silenus; April 22nd, 2012 at 01:27..

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

The frequency is lower than the one you chose

1600Mhz (which is one you chose) translates to PC12800. PC10666 on the other hand translates to 1333Mhz.



Also you won't find a modular PSU for cheap, they all come with a premium that makes them more expensive than their non-modular brethren which means you usually have to go start looking in the price range of 100-200W stronger PSUs to find some modular ones.
edit: As far I can tell this is the cheapest modular one
http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-ModXStream...xp_grid_pt_0_2
edit2: not quite, but it's also weaker though from a more reputable PSU maker
http://www.amazon.com/PC-Power-Cooli...5055037&sr=1-6

__________________

Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) | ASUS P5Q | 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 | ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M | Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1

The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

---

Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; April 22nd, 2012 at 01:38..

[Silenus]

Will use this memory
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

And what about this psu.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

__________________

DELL XPS 13 ULTRABOOK

...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

That RAM will be fine though it doesn't have the heatspreader incase you wanted that.

And that PSU isn't modular either so then you might as well stick with the Antec.

__________________

Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) | ASUS P5Q | 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 | ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M | Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1

The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

[Silenus]

This one is modular.

http://www.amazon.com/Coolmax-Power-.../ref=de_a_smtd

Looks to be enough.

__________________

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[masta.g.86]

Memory is fine. I use Mushkin Blackline in mine. Great memory with a small profile heatsink. I bought it for OCing, but Mushkin also has a value series as well. May be worth looking at if it's cheaper.

The PSU will work, but it isn't modular. I don't think a modular PSU is an absolute must though. With smart and careful cable management, I could connect all of the wires to my PSU without affecting airflow.

EDIT: ninja'd. Good price for a modular but then again, it's a Coolmax. Not sure of that brand's reliability. Would be better to stick with a more reliable brand that isn't modular, imo. Besides, a lower power CPU and a smaller, low power GPU makes the necessity of a modular PSU much lower.

As for the video card... It should fit with no problems I think. The 6870 that I use is a standard sized card at 9 1/2 inches. It fits but took some ingenuity on my end to get it in there. The sides of the case have a lip to secure the side panels and they interfere with installing a card that big. I had to install it sideways with the case completely stripped down and then had to bend the back area a bit to get the card's securing plate into the open slots. Fortunately, the case is all aluminum so the bending wasn't permanent; it sprung back into place after I got the card located in there properly.

__________________

The truth is there for those who choose to see it.

Core i7 2600K 4.2GHz | 8GB DDR3 1600MHz
AMD Radeon HD6870 Vapor-X | Samsung 24" Widescreen 1920x1200
Realtek HD 7.1 | Klipsch 5.1 Surround Sound
Samsung 6X BD-ROM | WD 1TB + 2TB Black
Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit

Join the NGEmu Folding@Home Team! Info
Download the standard client here OR preferably download the GPU or SMP client here.
Set your team ID to: 161326

---

Last edited by masta.g.86; April 22nd, 2012 at 02:29..

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Originally Posted by Silenus

This one is modular.

http://www.amazon.com/Coolmax-Power-.../ref=de_a_smtd

Looks to be enough.

Well yes...BUT, that's a 500W from a company I've NEVER heard of before with virtually no information given to Amazon and priced WAY under it's competitors....in other words the type of PSU one doesn't trust.

Granted since it's not a performance system there's less chance of overloading the thing if it's junk and making it blow, but it's still there.

I definitely would NOT get that one but I guess the choice is up to you.

__________________

Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) | ASUS P5Q | 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 | ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M | Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1

The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

[rui-no-onna]

Originally Posted by Silenus

530 bucks, I'll try to get better prices, but those are the parts I want.
Recommend a cheap ssd, I have a spare 320gb sata drive I will use for data.

I measured that case and it fits and looks very good for my needs.

What do you think about this ssd.
Is it good/cheap enough.
Corsair 60 GB Force Series 3 SATA III 6Gb/s 2.5-Inch Solid State Drive - CSSD-F60GB3A-BK
Yeah I know that I'm into mac mini price territory but I can see that I'll have a better machine.

SF-2000 controller. It's fine and should be near the top of the heap in terms of speed (not that the difference between SSD to SSD will be all that noticeable). If you want SandForce, then you might also want to look at the OCZ Vertex 3 or Agility 3. I think those go on sale more often than Corsair.

My personal preference runs more towards the Crucial m4 64GB. A good thing since it seems to go on sale for $65~70 every other week (*gasp* $1/GB!). You can actually find some high capacity SSDs selling for less than $1/GB now with a good sale. Alas, you'd need a bigger budget. :P

Drop the i3-2105 3.1GHz. The only difference between that and the i3-2100 is the integrated GPU and you've already mentioned you don't like Intel's GPU. Go with the less expensive i3-2120 3.3GHz or i3-2100 3.1GHz instead.

[Silenus]

I hate my bank doing maintenance.
Will start ordering tomorrow morning.

I think I have everything set.

Thanks for the recommendations rui and all of you.

btw changed the sapphire gpu for this one.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER
The sapphire was a two slot card.

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DELL XPS 13 ULTRABOOK

...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

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Last edited by Silenus; April 22nd, 2012 at 06:13..

[runawayprisoner]

I don't see why you shouldn't just spend that extra $40 - $50 for the HD 6770 since you've already decided to go this route.

Here's a single-slot one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131445

Or grab a HD 7750:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131461

Somehow, I think 6670 is very half-arsed if you are already going desktop GPU.

[masta.g.86]

I'd stick with the Sapphire. The cooler is larger and (hopefully) better than the XFX. Good possibility that it's quieter too. Plus, Sapphire's cooler helps direct the heat out of the case. Also, the motherboard only has one expansion slot, so why not go with a dual slot card?

__________________

The truth is there for those who choose to see it.

Core i7 2600K 4.2GHz | 8GB DDR3 1600MHz
AMD Radeon HD6870 Vapor-X | Samsung 24" Widescreen 1920x1200
Realtek HD 7.1 | Klipsch 5.1 Surround Sound
Samsung 6X BD-ROM | WD 1TB + 2TB Black
Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit

Join the NGEmu Folding@Home Team! Info
Download the standard client here OR preferably download the GPU or SMP client here.
Set your team ID to: 161326

[rui-no-onna]

Just a comment, given all the upgrades (budget/entry-level gaming GPU, 3.5" HDD, etc), don't expect anywhere near close to Mac Mini power consumption with this build. You're probably looking at 40~60W idle. Video playback probably wouldn't increase power consumption too much above idle (on the upside, you'll be able to max out Catalyst video post-processing on the HD 6670 or higher GPU or even use MadVR).

That build can actually handle PCSX2 as long as you don't go crazy with the internal res settings and stuff.

[Silenus]

Originally Posted by rui-no-onna

That build can actually handle PCSX2 as long as you don't go crazy with the internal res settings and stuff.

I know.

Mac Mini is notebook class on power consumption.

@RAP I don't think is worth it to put 40 bucks more.
Again I don't plan to game a lot and for the occasional game test the 6670 can try at least.

__________________

DELL XPS 13 ULTRABOOK

...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

[rui-no-onna]

Originally Posted by Silenus

@RAP I don't think is worth it to put 40 bucks more.
Again I don't plan to game a lot and for the occasional game test the 6670 can try at least.

Sides, if you ever do game, it's very easy to replace the GPU with something else (that's going to be newer and faster than what's currently available in the same price range). The CPU might take a bit more work to replace (just in case the games you wanna play are quad-core optimized) but I do believe Ivy Bridge is supported.